{"id":217238,"date":"2025-10-31T09:41:41","date_gmt":"2025-10-31T13:41:41","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.aclu.org\/?post_type=podcast&p=217238"},"modified":"2025-11-04T11:53:45","modified_gmt":"2025-11-04T16:53:45","slug":"deployments-at-our-doorstep","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/www.aclu.org\/podcast\/deployments-at-our-doorstep","title":{"rendered":"Deployments At Our Doorstep"},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

Frog costumes. The Star Wars theme. Whistlemania. These could be the sights and sounds of Halloween\u2014but this year, they've taken on new meaning. As federal agents and military troops arrive in their cities across the country, communities have used pop culture references, humor, and irreverence as an act of resilience. They\u2019ve also banded together to form school escorts and other protective measures for their neighbors. This week, we\u2019re exploring how residents of three cities have met this moment. We have three ACLU experts joining us. First up, we have Chandra S. Bhatnagar and Ed Yohnka of the ACLU of Southern California and Illinois. And around the 46-minute mark, Monica Hopkins of the ACLU of DC joins Kamau to discuss deployments in the nation\u2019s capital.
\nWant to get involved? Here are two actions you can take right now:
\naction.aclu.org\/send-message\/tell-congress-no-troops-our-streets
\naction.aclu.org\/send-message\/tell-congress-stop-masked-agents
\nAnd if you\u2019re still curious about the deployments, there\u2019s a great explainer on YouTube: \u201cAsk an ACLU Expert: President Trump\u2019s Deployment of Federal Forces to Our Communities\u201d with Hina Shamsi.
\nhttps:\/\/youtu.be\/1wQLAqD-KFM?si=LGsW6vlAM_A-1WKo<\/p>\n","protected":false},"featured_media":217242,"template":"","series":[],"class_list":["post-217238","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry"],"acf":{"date":"20251031","audio":217236,"transcript":"Kamau:<\/b> [00:00:00] [intro music] Hey everyone, it's me, W. Kamau Bell. Welcome back to the ACLU's podcast, At Liberty.\r\n\r\nKamau:<\/b> [00:00:08] Frog costumes, the Star Wars theme, Whistle mania. Nope, we're not talking about a Halloween party, we're talking about a protest. [Halloween sound effects, bells, thunder, spooky music]\r\n\r\nKamau:<\/b> [00:00:20] Since June, people nationwide have come together as communities in response to the Trump administration sending federal agents and military troops to their cities.\r\n\r\nKamau:<\/b> [00:00:27] Now, we don't just mean the military deployments you've seen in the news, we mean an alphabet super of agencies, including the FBI, DHS, and ICE.. The administration wants you to think that these cities are warzones, but it's the arrival of federal agents and military troops that actually pose a threat.\r\n\r\nKamau:<\/b> [00:00:45] Now we're recording this on Monday, October 27th. Today we're gonna zero in on three cities with three ACLU experts: Chicago, Los Angeles, and Washington, D.C. And by the end of our time together, our hope is that you'll feel more informed, [00:01:00] more connected to your ACLU community across the country. And better equipped to face a potential deployment to your neighborhood.\r\n\r\nKamau:<\/b> [00:01:07] And because joy and irreverence are a part of our resistance toolkit, don't forget to bring your unicorn costume. Mine's a double extra-large. With that, let's get to work. First up, we're turning our attention to Los Angeles and Chicago. Chandra S. Bhatnagar is executive director of the ACLU of Southern California. And Ed Yohnka is Director of Communications and Public Policy at the ACLU of Illinois. [theme music plays in the background]\r\n\r\nKamau:<\/b> [00:01:35] So, Chandra, let's start with you. As of October 27th\u2014which we feel like we have to be day and date specific right now with the way things are changing\u2013we, me and Ed, were just talking about that before we started.\r\n\r\nKamau:<\/b> [00:01:46] Uh, how are things in LA? Who is stationed in LA? What is LA dealing with right now?\r\n\r\nChandra:<\/b> [00:01:51] Well, thanks for the question and, and you're right about every day being a week and every week being a month and every month being a year, um, [00:02:00] we, we certainly are feeling that. Um, I think, you know, all is quiet on the western front at this moment.\r\n\r\nChandra:<\/b> [00:02:05] Um, we've had, uh, conversations with our colleagues, um, Ed, and others around the country that are, have more recently confronted the kind of, um, the National Guard deployments. And we, of course, were the first to have that, um, experience in, in June. Um, but I think we're closely monitoring, you know, kind of the actions of DHS and ICE and, um, the federal government in this moment, um, but, so I can't really say that we're exhaling fully, but, um, I think we're, kind of remaining vigilant is how, how I would answer.\r\n\r\nKamau:<\/b> [00:02:40] Um, I don't know if you know, but I live in the Bay Area, so I'm right now in Oakland, California. And I feel like as LA exhaled, Oakland and the Bay Area inhaled some of this anxiety. And I, and please, both of you can help us, the listener, understand. I think we just hear \u2018deployments\u2019, and we think it's always the, like, the National Guard or it's always ICE, but really it's, it's an, as [00:03:00] you said in the intro, an alphabet soup of agencies. So, I know Oakland, there was fear that I think it was ICE that was gonna show up, and that maybe the National Guard would come, but, so if you can speak on that, the idea of like how it sort of shifts around the country a little bit.\r\n\r\nChandra:<\/b> [00:03:12] Sure. I can lead us off. Um, here's how it played out in LA. They initially deployed ICE very aggressively to engage in, I'm not even gonna call it immigration enforcement, because it was literally just rounding up people, brown people, um, in random places, Home Depots, car washes, um, farm workers, street vendors, and then sorting them out later as to who were US citizens and who weren't.\r\n\r\nChandra:<\/b> [00:03:38] And, there were so\u2013 obviously racial profiling. Um, in addition, there was lack of access to council, sufficient access to council, and then the conditions in which people were being held were deplorable. Um, so that happened in June, and that was from DHS, Department of Homeland Security, and ICE, Immigration and Customs Enforcement.\r\n\r\nChandra:<\/b> [00:03:58] Unsurprisingly, the people of [00:04:00] LA were not pleased with this onslaught. And, so, you saw protests, and you saw folks engaging in their constitutionally protected rights to protest the actions of the administration. And then in response to those protests, the Trump administration deployed the National\u2013 or sought to deploy the National Guard to ostensibly protect federal property. But I mean, that's not what they were doing. And, um, they made a show of force in a park in the middle of a summer day when kids were having camp. Um, so it was clearly meant to send a message to our community. So that's how it played out here, where it was essentially the arsonist sets the fire and then says, oh, I'm come to put out the fire that I set. Um, but I can let Ed speak to kind of how things played out in Chicago.\r\n\r\nKamau:<\/b> [00:04:42]Yeah. Let's, let's do a check-in on Chicago, Ed. Again. It's still October 27th, I wanna make sure we're, like\u2026\r\n\r\nEd:<\/b> [00:04:48] So I, I think as I mentioned to you, it's a good day thus far because as the time we're recording this, tear gas has not been, uh, released in any of our neighborhoods across [00:05:00] the Chicagoland area today.\r\n\r\nEd:<\/b> [00:05:01] They were yesterday, they were the day before, and they were on Friday. So, what we're really seeing is while the deployment of Federalized National Guard, um, are still blocked, and we're still awaiting a ruling, uh, from the Supreme Court on that question. What is really happening is, a\u2013 an invasive attack on our communities and on neighborhoods all across the Chicagoland area.\r\n\r\nEd:<\/b> [00:05:31] And I think in this instance it is not limited to the city of Chicago, ut is not limited to particular neighborhoods in Chicago. They've attacked the North side, the South side, the Southwest side. It's, you know, out in the suburbs are being attacked. And you know, what we're seeing is this escalating use of force. Tear gas, uh, you know, vehicles being rammed, uh, you know, [00:06:00] around the Broadview Detention Center prior to a ruling that we got along with some other legal groups, you were saying projectiles and pepper spray used on a regular basis for protestors. And so, you know, what we're seeing is this continuing to kind of amp up, uh, the activity that's going on, the violence that's associated with the activity.\r\n\r\nEd:<\/b> [00:06:25] And I think that what that's causing in, in the way that Chandra had had described it is, is that you are seeing community members\u2013and it doesn't matter whether this is in Pilsen or Aurora or Elgin or in Lakeview, in Chicago\u2014come out screaming at these officers to get out of their neighborhoods saying they don't want them there, they don't want this kind of enforcement, this is not something that makes the city of Chicago safer. And, you know, residents want safe communities everywhere. And the reality [00:07:00] is, is that I think that that pressure from the community is just causing federal forces and federal officers to just ramp up the violence and the pressure that they're using, uh, you know, with some regularity.\r\n\r\nKamau:<\/b> [00:07:14] Yeah, I think it's important for people who don't live in one of these cities that is being targeted to understand that like these, the federal government isn't sending in forces that are going after specific people, it doesn't seem like. And really, it feels like these, when they, when they arrive in a city as you just named, all those neighborhoods, various neighborhoods of various ethnic makeups and racial makeups and socioeconomic groups are all being sort of hit similarly.\r\n\r\nChandra:<\/b> [00:07:36] It\u2019s true, and at the same time, um, the administration is trying to play it both ways. So we have a lawsuit, um, Vasquez Perdomo, which is challenging the ICE raids. And, um, we, uh, received a temporary restraining order from the district judge based upon more than two dozen affidavits of people's experiences, um, folks who have been racially profiled and abused. And, [00:08:00] um, they appealed that\u2013the government\u2013to the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals, we won there. We got a great decision from the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals. They then appealed to the Supreme Court, and in the shadow docket there was an unsigned opinion that put a stay on that temporary restraining order.\r\n\r\nChandra:<\/b> [00:08:13] But the inconsistency that the government is failed to address is, they're saying essentially, we can't do our immigration enforcement with this temporary restraining order. The temporary restraining order says \u2018you cannot racially profile.\u2019 Any form of lawful immigration enforcement, it doesn't restrict that at all.\r\n\r\nChandra:<\/b> [00:08:32] It says only you can't do it if you violate the Constitution by treating people differently because of their skin color, or speaking with an accent. So, if they're not engaging in racial profiling, that TRO should not have any impact on their immigration enforcement, but they're saying that they can't do their immigration enforcement without it.\r\n\r\nChandra:<\/b> [00:08:50] So, essentially they're confessing that they have to engage in racial profiling in order to meet the quotas that's been imposed upon them to round people up. And that's [00:09:00] deeply problematic. It's unconstitutional, and it's why you see communities rising up,\r\n\r\nEd:<\/b> <\/b>[00:09:03] You know, Kamau in, in Chicago, one of the things we had along with our partners at the National Immigrant Justice Center, a consent decree from actually the first Trump administration, that simply said that when ICE went out to, to get somebody, they had to target that person, they couldn't take collateral people in place, and they had to have a warrant in advance of going out in order to, uh, detain people and to, to take them. What this administration has been doing is simply going out with a fistful of empty warrants. They detain people, question them, then they write up the warrant, why they have the person in custody and, and then arrest them.\r\n\r\nEd:<\/b> <\/b>[00:09:45] We were just in court last Friday, uh, our lawyers were in court and hearing the judge, you know, it's just an amazing thing to hear a government lawyer say, \u2018well, we, we broadcast that to our officers. Are they following it? Well, ya [00:10:00] know, we broadcast that to them. There is no commitment that they've done it.\u2019\r\n\r\nEd:<\/b> <\/b>[00:10:04] And the most amazing thing was, and, and, and, Chandra talked about the conditions. The judge said, \u2018you know, on page five of your reply brief, you said that every person who's been taken into detention, uh, is being kept in a safe, secure facility that is consistent with constitutional norms. Is that true?\u2019 The lawyer said, \u2018well, I'd have to talk to my client.\u2019\r\n\r\nEd:<\/b> <\/b>[00:10:26] And the judge, in one of those great moments in the courtroom simply said, \u2018then why'd you put it in there? If you can't defend it, why'd you put it in there?\u2019 And I think that, you know, this is what I think, and I'm sure Chandra will say this, it's like trying to chase jelly in a bag. You know, you're, you're just pushing it around everywhere, 'cause they just changed their damn story. You know, whether it's the reason they shot somebody, whether it's the reason they rammed the car, whether it's the reason they targeted a particular neighborhood. It is just one of those things that, you know, it's just so hard to tamp down [00:11:00] because they're just making this stuff up as they go along.\r\n\r\nChandra:<\/b> [00:11:02] I was just gonna say, that's what makes it so surreal is we, we have a case, uh, with\u2013brought by the LA Press Club, um, against Department of Homeland Security and ICE for, um, engaging in violence against protestors, and exactly as Ed described, tear gas rubber bullets, targeting lawful protestors, including clergy, elderly people, a union organizer, and in the terrific decision that we got from the district judge, there's a restraining order, which basically says you're not allowed, government, to brutalize the community when they exert their First Amendment rights. It is surreal that we need an order like that in this moment.\r\n\r\nKamau:<\/b> [00:11:42] So let's talk about the event you're talking about in MacArthur Park, san you explain what happened there in July?\r\n\r\nChandra:<\/b> [00:11:48] Sure. So it was an unremarkable, beautiful, LA July day. Children were at camp in MacArthur Park. Um, elderly folks were having coffee and walking their [00:12:00] dogs. People were exercising, doing all the things you normally would do in a city park. And military vehicles showed up, um, arm\u2013heavily armed.\r\n\r\nChandra:<\/b> [00:12:10] Um, weapons of war, folks on horseback, and it was essentially a show of force. There was nothing happening in MacArthur Park. There was no, uh, you know, hot tip about like, there's a big, you know, immigration enforcement, uh, need to be there. There's not a, a gang running outta the park. I mean, there was literally nothing happening.\r\n\r\nChandra:<\/b> [00:12:28] And, um, the people that were there were so incensed at this show of force that you saw ordinary citizens kind of waving their fingers, being like, \u2018get the heck out of our park.\u2019 Our mayor, uh, to her great credit, she went to the park and said, \u2018get outta here. What are you doing here? You don't need to be here. This is completely unnecessary and upsetting to our community.\u2019 They left the park. They were essentially shamed outta the park. But it's a great example of how people who are courageous enough to kind of extraordinarily [00:13:00] speak, truth to power can have an impact. And um, we've seen that again and again here in Los Angeles where people have risen up and said, \u2018we're not gonna accept the trampling of our fundamental rights under the Constitution.\u2019\r\n\r\nChandra:<\/b> [00:13:12] I mean, we saw, you know, millions of people around the country recently at the No Kings protest, making the same point, that this is not what we signed up for. This is not the democracy that we expect. Not that we've ever had a perfect democracy. We haven't, we've never fully achieved a multiracial democracy, and that's where I think folks are really\u2013have risen up.\r\n\r\nKamau:<\/b> [00:13:19] Well, let's talk about that, \u2018cause if you know that you can be in a park and suddenly federal troops or federal agents show up and you don't know who they are, and as you said, there's nothing happening in the park, you know, maybe that day people stand up to those federal agents and you're safe for that day, but Ed, I wanna ask you, how do you think that affects, like the next day when you have to go to school, or you have to go to work, or you have to like, you know, you know, just live your regular life, having been through something like that, or having read about things like that happening in your city?\r\n\r\nEd:<\/b> [00:13:57] Yeah, you know, I, it, it, it's really [00:14:00] interesting you asked this question because I was just thinking about this over the weekend, because as I said late last week, ICE, uh, attacked like Lincoln Park and Lakeview in Chicago, wealthier neighborhoods, looking for nannies and construction workers. And what's interesting is, is those communities on Saturday, Sunday, and today have just gone back to being normal. Other communities, what we're seeing is the fear that begins to penetrate and the trauma that really settles in over an entire community. Where the patronage at restaurants are way down. As I heard somebody describe it last week, you know, you've had to put together these sort of human buses to walk kids to school and, and, and this was the way someone explained it:\r\n\r\nEd:<\/b> [00:14:48] Imagine being a mother on the Southwest side of Chicago, and you have to turn your 7-year-old daughter over to some white guy to make sure that she gets to school safely. You can't go. [00:15:00] You can't be there. You can't do it. But you know, you can, you, you have to trust that someone else is gonna get your child there and back.\r\n\r\nEd:<\/b> [00:15:08] And in, in much the same way, you know, we have a lot of our, uh, local organizations doing both food drives and food deliveries for people who just won't leave their homes. And I think that the, the harm that that causes, the, you know, the way in which it interferes with the vibrancy of a city, no shade to either Oakland or LA, [Chandra and Kamau laugh] I believe that Chicago is the greatest city in America, right? It's the most vibrant, diverse city in America. And one of the things about that is, is because you can find a gazillion neighborhoods you can walk through, in which people, you know, are speaking different languages, there are different foods, there are different things that you can do; and the, and the fact is, is that choking that off In this service of this immigration scheme that, that serves [00:16:00] no end in, in, in terms of anything tangible. Um, you know, it's just a really dangerous thing to do over the long haul.\r\n\r\nKamau:<\/b> [00:16:06] No, I appreciate that. And, and I just wanna say one thing before we move on, as I think me and, uh, Chandra are both laughing 'cause: snow. We'll just say snow is our defense of LA and Oakland being better cities in Chicago. Uh, we'll move on. We'll move on. We don't have to legislate that.\r\n\r\nEd:<\/b> [00:16:20] [Laughing] Okay, you got it.\r\n\r\nKamau:<\/b> [00:16:22] So, but uh, so I wanna ask you again, I wanna follow up question, 'cause can you tell me the story of this, of Pastor David Black?\r\n\r\nEd:<\/b> [00:16:26] Yeah. Pastor David Black is a minister, um, in a Presbyterian church. Here in the city of Chicago. He\u2019s been very active in community and community organizing and community building on the South side.\r\n\r\nEd:<\/b> [00:16:43] Broadview, which is the ice processing center here in the Chicago area, it's in a little suburb that's just outside of the city limits, has become sort of the center of a lot of protests, because we don't have detention centers and you know, we don't [00:17:00] have people housed at, at, county jails in Illinois due to our state laws.\r\n\r\nEd:<\/b> [00:17:05] So one of the things that, you know, this center has become a de facto detention center, and has become the center of a lot of the protests that's happening. Pastor Black was there literally with his arms outstretched standing in front of the facility, praying, and he was shot in the head with a pepper ball from the roof of this facility where, you know, days afterwards, Kristi Noem stood up there with a fixed gun on top of this roof, in this small industrial area of this small little community, which they've turned into some sort of a beachhead, like they're protecting a nuclear device. I mean, it's just, it's just crazy. And literally engaged in this process over weeks where they fired on journalists who were simply there reporting on what was happening.\r\n\r\nEd:<\/b> [00:17:58] They fired on [00:18:00] protesters who were doing nothing more than playing guitar or sitting in the grass across the way, just being there with signs. And so it's, it's really been a focal point, and, and Pastor Black has really become, you know, sort of a focal point of the violence and the aggression of ICE agents against people simply who were expressing themselves.\r\n\r\nKamau:<\/b> [00:18:22] Chandra, I wanna ask you the similar question that I asked, uh, uh, Ed, about the chilling effect on just being a resident in LA who's trying to get to and from, you know, school or work, or just live your life while this is all happening.\r\n\r\nChandra:<\/b> [00:18:24] Thanks Kamau. It's, it's such an important question because the impact, I don't know that we're gonna be able to unpack the impact of this on our communities for, for some time to come.\r\n\r\nChandra:<\/b> [00:18:45] There are, I mean, already there's statistics about absent days from school, for example, in different communities, in different neighborhoods where people are fearful of sending their children to school. What if I get picked up when my kid is at school? Where are they gonna go? The child who goes to school, how are they supposed to learn? How are you supposed [00:19:00] to sit in class and listen to your teacher when you're worried about your mom or your dad potentially getting picked up while you're in school? They have done ICE raids in close proximity to schools here. Which has, I mean, it's, it's unnecessary and it's, it is exactly the kind of hardcore impact that you would, that you would imagine kids seeing that as they're going to school or hearing the sirens as they're near school.\r\n\r\nChandra:<\/b> [00:19:21] And that's just one area, right? In terms of children, think about the number of people who might have experienced domestic violence who are not gonna report it. Think about people who haven't gone to, to the doctor for medical treatments that they desperately need because of, of being afraid to leave the house.\r\n\r\nChandra:<\/b> [00:19:36] I mean, there are folks who are afraid to go get groceries, right? So just the, the fear that our communities are enduring. No one should be afraid to walk the streets because of your skin color. No one should be afraid because you speak with an accent. And that's what this adminis\u2013that's the environment that this administration has created, whether intentionally or unintentionally, that's the environment that they've created and that's what we have to stand against. So I think the [00:20:00] impact is a really crucial question for us to consider: What kind of society do we wanna live in, and how are we gonna, how can we tolerate this sort of, um, conduct,\r\n\r\nKamau: <\/b>[00:20:09] Talk about working at the ACLU right now and how the ACLU is navigating all of this and the deployments and the effect on the communities. I'll start with you again, Chandra.\r\n\r\nChandra:<\/b> [00:20:18] Sure. So it is, I mean, it is, it is deeply, I'm deeply honored to be working with ACLU in this moment. Um, I think the organization, the National ACLU is more than a hundred years old, and our southern California chapter, which was the first in the country, we're also more than a hundred years old, so I feel the weight of that history. We've been there during the Korematsu era and we've been there during the Red Scare and we've been there during the McCarthy era. Um, and I believe that we're uniquely, um, built to help to try to fight for civil rights and equality and civil liberties for all people in this moment as well.\r\n\r\nChandra:<\/b> [00:20:53] Um, at the same time, we're clear-eyed that this is the type of threat that we've never faced before in this country. We are looking at [00:21:00] things that are so fundamentally un-American. I mean, part of the reason the National Guard issue is so important is it's exactly what the framers of this, of our constitution were afraid of.\r\n\r\nChandra:<\/b> [00:21:08] People like John Adams that lived through the Boston Massacre where British troops were attacking demonstrators, and killed people, they did not want a militia, a federal militia to be running the streets of our country. So it's both a historical and un-American what this administration is seeking to do. And at the ACLU, we're gonna fight, you know, with all our might to ensure that everybody, all people have access to fundamental rights under our constitution.\r\n\r\nEd:<\/b> [00:21:33]You know, I think for me, I, I, I've been in this job for 26 plus years, and it is incredibly gratifying in this moment to see both internally, you know, colleagues pulling together, working together, being thoughtful and creative about the kinds of things that we're working with.\r\n\r\nEd:<\/b> [00:21:58] Connecting with partner [00:22:00] organizations outside in creative, in ways in which, you know, have not always been the norm. I often joke, you know, I see our governor and our mayor and all these elected officials standing up against the National Guard and when all of them can stand in one place without slapping at each other, I believe every, anything is possible.\r\n\r\nEd:<\/b> [00:22:21] 'Cause that's been an amazing thing. I think the other thing is, you know, and, and I'm sure that Chandra has the same reaction, is just the, the feeling or the weight of, the gravity of the way in which people believe we are important in this moment to fighting this and believe that we have been built for this, and the way we've always proclaimed that we have been, I think is something that is both gratifying but also carries with it a lot of expectations in terms of, you know, what we can do. And so, it makes it easier to just get up every day, uh, you know, and keep [00:23:00] plugging away and keep fighting at this. And I think that's the, that's what we keep working at.\r\n\r\nKamau:<\/b> [00:23:05] Uh, one of the bigger issues that I think has been frustrating for me, as somebody who travels around the country, uh, and your cities are rife for this, is just the demonization of certain cities and cities being called war zones and in ways that people who live in those cities are like, \u2018yeah, we have problems and issues like every city.\u2019 But yeah. Can you just talk about the demonization of these cities as war zones?\r\n\r\nEd:<\/b> [00:23:28] Yeah, let me, let me start and jump in with Chicago. You, you know, first of all, I have to say, when I was at the No Kings rally, I was with the, the head of the Chicago Federation for Labor, and we were on the stage going to speak and he, he turned to me and he said, \u2018you know, you just can't underestimate how mad people get when somebody from New York screws with Chicago.\u2019 [Kamau laughs] And there is, you know, there is so much truth in this. Like, yes, we've got problems. Mm-hmm. Uh, you [00:24:00] know, and we've got things we've been working at, and we need to do better. But the last thing in the world we need is a bunch of, you know, troops to come marching in to think they're gonna establish order in communities that have already been overpoliced, right.\r\n\r\nEd:<\/b> [00:24:14] That our problems often come from the fact that these people have suffered government sanctioned violence in the past. And so, the idea that that is somehow the solution to any of this is just not something that we see. And I think one of the things that, it'll be interesting in decades to come, is I, as I travel around all of Chicagoland, and not just the city, there's been almost this radicalization, you know, this radicalization of people in this area because they feel as though they've literally been attacked by their own federal government. And things about them and things that have been said about them that are completely untrue, uh, have been laid out bare by a president who [00:25:00] seems completely clueless about the way we live as a community. And that really angers people in a fundamental way. Again, don't\u2013it's not that they don't recognize the problems, they just wanna solve 'em for themselves.\r\n\r\nKamau:<\/b> [00:25:14] Chandra, what do you about the, how do you feel, how do people feel, how do you feel about the way in which Los Angeles has been classified by the Trump administration in this time?\r\n\r\nChandra:<\/b> [00:25:23] It's a, it's a terrific question, Kamau, and I think part of what is required is to look at what this administration's broader agenda is, um, around civil rights and, um, or the lack thereof.\r\n\r\nChandra:<\/b> [00:25:36] I, I mean, I would argue this administration has an explicitly anti-Black agenda that it has demonstrated by unraveling a lot of the protections from the Civil Rights Act period to the present by undermining the work of the independent work of the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, by changing the work of the Department of Education and planning on getting rid of the Department of Education ultimately, which has played such a historic role in [00:26:00] kind of advancing civil rights by perverting the work of the Civil Rights Division of the Department of Justice, who immediately stopped doing work on a number of really crucial civil rights cases, um, when the administration took office. And the code words that it's using to justify going into Washington, that it's using to justify going into Chicago, are anti-Black, you know, kind of euphemisms about crime, about drugs, about unruly danger and, and even unhoused stuff.\r\n\r\nChandra:<\/b> [00:26:26] And in LA it has a, um, distinct anti-immigrant flavor given the demographics in our city as well. But even within that, it is this whole rhetoric around like these are people coming from countries that we don't find to be the countries that we wanna allow immigration from. For, um, refugee status. We're gonna turn a blind, we're gonna turn a blind eye to them. So, we have to look at all of this, kind of with that frame and see the language that's being used, um, to describe the communities that this, that this administration is kind of attacking. And I mean, 20% of the immigrant communities in in LA are, are people of African descent. [00:27:00] So it's not just a Black-brown issue in terms of it's just brown people are being impacted, there are Black people are being impacted as well.\r\n\r\nChandra:<\/b> [00:27:06] And it's for that reason that I think we have to be really explicit about what our values are. Our values are tolerance, equality for everybody. Justice for everybody. And that's what we have to fight for in this moment. And I think there's an opportunity for coalition work, um, in that project around understanding, um, kind of the ways that we can support one another to advance liberation and, and, um, opportunity for everybody. But it's gonna be kind of with a clear-eyed understanding of, they're coming for all of us and we really need to be strategic in building those bonds.\r\n\r\nKamau:<\/b> [00:27:37] Well, as, as we talk about they're coming for all of us. Can we talk about, you know, what do you see the people in your communities doing who are like, you know, not ACLU employees? There's obviously, there's been marches and protests, but how do you see the people in your cities, uh, standing up and coming together? And we'll start with you, uh, uh, Ed. Yeah.\r\n\r\nEd:<\/b> [00:27:54] You know, I think this is the thing that makes me, uh, the most [00:28:00] proud of this community. People have come out, they have gathered together, joined rapid response groups where they haven't been fully trained as part of rapid response groups. They are literally buying whistles and going up and down streets of Chicago and whistling when they see the ICE agents, and honking their horns, just to let people know that they're there. This, these acts of defiance, uh, and opposition that are just, you know, so heartwarming because it's not like these are just people from the community. These are just, not just the people who are being targeted, but people who understand the way all of this is eroding a feeling of community and partnership and, and good will across all of our communities, and they are standing up and pushing back in an effective way. And I think all of those things are things that, you know, when we see that, when we see the way in which, you know, [00:29:00] candidly, just everyday folks\u2013I, I, I still think of the, you know, the raids last week in Lakeview and Lincoln Park where people just flooded into the streets and said, you know, get out of here.\r\n\r\nEd:<\/b> [00:29:10] I mean, they, they screamed expletives, we're in Chicago, we use expletives.\r\n\r\nKamau:<\/b> [00:29:15] First Amendment. First Amendment.\r\n\r\nEd:<\/b> [00:29:17] Yeah. First Amendment. And from time to time, we do that. They were just a force in and of themselves. They don't need, they don't need anybody to, to organize them. They don't need anybody to tell them they're wrong. They don't need to be led in those ways. They just believe that this is the wrong thing to do. And I think that's the place where you see community rising up in, in such a sure and certain way that that really is heartwarming.\r\n\r\nKamau:<\/b> [00:29:43] Yeah, Chandra, I'd kick that to you and just also feel free to talk about how, you know, there's also the, the people who are in the, who are working in independent press organizations who are showing up or people who are working to just document, like, they don't, that's not necessarily their job, but they're just working to document court proceedings or, or, or [00:30:00] things happening in front of federal buildings and things like that.\r\n\r\nChandra:<\/b> [00:30:02] I, firstly would join with everything that Ed said in terms of. My experience, like the, I've been inspired and humbled by what I've seen around me. Frankly. It's been, and, and to your point, Kamau, about citizen journal\u2013 like both professional journalists and citizen, non-professional journalists, it is that documentation that's been so vital in casting a spotlight on some of the most egregious abuses that you\u2013 that we've seen where people just with a cell phone have shown, you know, the, the elderly landscaper who was pushed to the ground, who has, you know, four children who are, um, veterans of, of the Marine Corps.\r\n\r\nChandra:<\/b> [00:30:38] Um, that example doesn't come to light if somebody doesn't record that. You know, all the things that have happened. I mean, we have, agents popping out of U-Haul vans and Penske trucks when we have complete, the irony is the lawlessness is coming from the government. That's where the lawlessness is coming from, and it, it is being documented by people because of the courage that they're showing to bring it to the world.\r\n\r\nChandra:<\/b> [00:31:00] And so, uh, certainly appreciate the work of professional journalists to tell these stories and to meet with communities, but also the work of communities themselves to tell their own stories has to be appreciated. I also have been really taken by the solidarity that I've seen between Muslim communities and African-American communities and Latino communities in this moment, I don't mean to pretend that there's Kumbaya, but there's absolutely mutual aid and mutual support and membership and, um, team building and, and, um, solidarity that I've seen that's gonna be essential, right? The, the other thing I think that is important is people are connecting the dots about the hypocrisy here.\r\n\r\nChandra:<\/b> [00:31:35] So at, at the same time that you see attacks on DEI, um, on scholarships and on, uh, recruitment for universities to bring in underrepresented minorities or women, um, at the same time, this administration has taken the position that it's lawful or permissible for them to use that same skin color as a basis to detain somebody and deprive them of their rights and throw them in a, in a jail cell until that person can somehow prove that they belong in [00:32:00] this country. And that's a hypocrisy that communities have identified, and that's why you see such strong representation at the No Kings rallies and beyond.\r\n\r\nKamau:<\/b> [00:32:08] And I, and I, without, you know, I don't want to get too far away from talking about people standing up with, like, people are also putting themselves at risk. I mean, we have an episode about Mario Guevara, the journalist, uh, from, uh, Georgia, uh, who has been deported. So there's this also a sense of like, people who are fighting for immigration rights may also of themselves have, may not be documented or have immigration issues, and people who are standing up for First Amendment rights are often gonna put themselves in harm's way as they are, as they're exercising their First Amendment that people are, you talk about either one of you talk about just the fact that this means people putting themselves at risk, Ed?\r\n\r\nEd:<\/b> [00:32:40] Yeah. You know, last week I was at a, there was a shadow hearing that some House Democrats had in Chicago, uh, about activities by ICE here in Chicago, and hearing the rapid response teams talk\u2013 you know, the leaders of those teams\u2013 talk about those people who are out there on the ground, as you say, [00:33:00] putting themselves on the front lines and putting themselves at risk, um, you know, it's, it's really a remarkable, and quite candidly, it's a compelling, it's a compelling thing to make us all keep going a little bit harder and a little bit longer. Because, you know, there are people out there who are really putting themselves out for these moments. And I think that, you know, that was, that was one of the takeaways for me from that hearing was is, is just recognizing how much work.\r\n\r\nEd:<\/b> [00:33:31] And I think in the way Chandra described it, as a unified things that had brought groups together, but also in a courageous way. Because there are people who don't know, you know, we've seen people get swept up here in Chicago simply for recording ICE officers, which is, you know, which is a constitutionally protected activity, you know? So we've seen all of that happen. So the folks who are out there are doing it at risk. But believe that this moment is important enough to do that. [00:34:00] And I think that speaks volumes about the courage of those folks.\r\n\r\nChandra:<\/b> [00:34:04] Just to add to that, it's not just a hypothetical risk. I mean, our LA Press Club case, there are journalists who were brutalized, who were attacked, who experienced tear gas and, and had pepper spray and, and rubber bullets fired at them while they were doing their jobs, documenting protest. Um, that can't be in a free society. Um, journalists can't be the target of the government, um, in a way that seems intentional. And that's a, you know, if you look at the decision of the judge, um, there was an, it, it seemed as though there was intent to prevent them from being able to document what was happening. Um, and that's, I, I think it's really important to highlight those, these issues.\r\n\r\nKamau:<\/b> [00:34:39] Uh, I just wanna ask generally, what's next for your affiliates in terms of these deployments? How do you continue, how do you, uh, plan on fighting these good fights and, uh, let us know. Yeah. We'll start with you, Ed.\r\n\r\nEd:<\/b> [00:34:50] Yeah, for us, I think there's a couple of things, I think we still continue to look at and try to push back against the way in which these [00:35:00] immigration activities, like Chandra, I'm not even gonna call it enforcement 'cause it's not. Uh, the way these activities are being carried out and look for ways to challenge and sort of slow that down.\r\n\r\nEd:<\/b> [00:35:10] We'll also look at the way and the conditions under which people are held. Uh, you know, 'cause Broadview, which was just a processing center, has been turned into a de facto detention center. So, you know, that's something that we'll continue to do. And, you know, frankly, one of the other things I think is really important, that I spend a lot of time thinking about and we spend a lot of time doing, is just being out in community with people.\r\n\r\nEd:<\/b> [00:35:36] Sort of hearing, both hearing the stories, but also talking about the importance of pushing back, talking about the legal basis for that, um, and talking about the historic basis for it. 'Cause I think sometimes. You know, we, we have to remember this is gonna be a long fight and, and we can't let people, you know, get tired. We gotta continue to give them food and fuel for [00:36:00] that fight and to, to point out and affirm them for being correct and being on the right side of history.\r\n\r\nEd:<\/b> [00:36:05] And so I think a lot of that is to show where we can, you know, the green shoots of, of progress is something that, you know, I think about a lot. I mean, you know, we just had a couple of weeks ago where three federal judges in three different courtrooms, literally over the course of three days, three consecutive days, called into question the justification and rationalizations of the Trump administration's actions. And I just, you know, I always tell people, man, if you think you're seeing something that doesn't make sense, courts are seeing it too when they're asked the question.\r\n\r\nEd:<\/b> [00:36:43] We've gotta keep going, we've gotta keep questioning that. We've gotta keep talking to our neighbors about all of these, because that it is really taking out that foundation and that underpinning, uh, of all the lies that are justifying this action, that's really gonna help everybody continue to have the, the, the spirit to move forward.\r\n\r\nKamau:<\/b> [00:37:00] Yes, Chandra?\r\n\r\nChandra:<\/b> [00:37:02] I, I think there are three kind of key points we, we are highlighting, but we also would wanna make sure that your audience is kind of thinking about, the first is normalization.\r\n\r\nChandra:<\/b> [00:37:10] We cannot normalize any of this. We cannot act like this is okay. When troops show up in a, in a park like that, we, we can't look the other way. We have to call it as being inappropriate. And, and that's something that I think is important for the ACLU and for all of our communities around the country, is not to allow any of this to be normalized.\r\n\r\nChandra:<\/b> [00:37:30] Um, the second is apathy. It can be very tempting to be like, what can we do? This is hopeless. You know, they've got it in the bag. And that is that the, the, one of the great tools of the autocrat is the apathy of the masses. And so that's why I think the no Kings rallies and other demonstrations are so vital to demonstrate that we're not apathetic. We're not gonna sit back and allow this to happen. We're gonna actively engage, we're gonna engage in the streets, we're gonna engage in the courts, we're gonna engage in the legislatures. We're gonna, we're gonna engage [00:38:00] in the, in the, you know, kind of world of public opinion, the public square. But we're not just gonna go down quietly.\r\n\r\nChandra:<\/b> [00:38:05] And then the last point is sunlight. Sunlight is vital. We have to cast attention on all of the injustices that you've highlighted in, in this show and in your others. And I'm a big fan of the series. Um, and in one example of that, that we're gonna be doing in the near term is, next week, I'm gonna be in Geneva, Switzerland for, um, the Universal Periodic Review, which is, um, a regular review of the human rights record.\r\n\r\nChandra:<\/b> [00:38:30] Every country is subject to it. The US is supposed to be reviewed next week. Um, they're not gonna show up, for the first time in their history. They're not gonna show up for the review. So, while they're not gonna show up, we are and we are gonna highlight the injustices and the human rights violations that are happening in this country.\r\n\r\nChandra:<\/b> [00:37:47] I'm gonna be speaking to the ICE raids and the National Guard issues, and my colleagues from other, um, ACLU, um, chapters will be bringing some other additional information, and partners from other civil rights and human rights organizations will be, um, bringing other things. But the idea is to get [00:39:00] the attention of the world on what's happening here and to have greater sunlight and greater scrutiny and to try to build a global consensus for what we should have, which is rights under our constitution and rights under international law, and a pressure on this administration to kind of abide by the norms, um, that are, it's obligated to abide by.\r\n\r\nKamau:<\/b> [00:39:18] So this is, uh, last, last couple questions. Um, uh, we ask everybody this, if listeners remember one thing from this conversation, what should it be? And if listeners do one thing from this conversation, what should it be? I'll start with you, uh, Ed, if they remember one thing and if they do one thing, what would you say?\r\n\r\nEd:<\/b> [00:39:35] If they can remember one thing, it is that, that whatever problems we have in a community like Chicago, they are not solved by the violence and the recklessness of these ICE agents. And if you can do one thing I would say, if you're listening from somewhere else that hasn't been targeted in this way, is do the preparation work now.\r\n\r\nEd:<\/b> [00:39:57] Do know your rights [00:40:00] presentations with communities of all sorts, all across your community, help to create rapid response teams, help to build networks of people who are talking to one another and are ready to respond. I think it's one of the things that, you know, we're very proud of here, is that our immigrant rights community really set out about a decade ago to do a lot of this, Know Your Rights work, which is really paying off now, in terms of meeting people at the, you know, meeting these ICE agents at the doors, forcing them to have warrants, engaging in those things.\r\n\r\nEd:<\/b> [00:40:34] I think do that work. If you haven't been involved in it, find a way to do it and find a way to participate in that because sooner or later, this isn't just about Chicago or LA, this is gonna come to your community as well.\r\n\r\nKamau:<\/b> [00:40:48] Thank you. Chandra, same for you. If, if listeners remember one thing from this conversation, what should it be? If they do one thing from this conversation, what should they do?\r\n\r\nChandra:<\/b> [00:40:56] I would say everyone can make a difference. So, what can you do? [00:41:00] You are, we are the leaders that we've been waiting for. You can make a contribution in your own church, in your barbershop, in your community by being engaged. Um, you can work with an organization like the ACLU, you can work with community organizations, but this is a participatory exercise.\r\n\r\nChandra:<\/b> [00:41:16] A movement for popular democracy, which is what we need to build, is an inherently participatory exercise. And nobody who cares about these issues can afford to sit out. So we need you, and we need you to bring your talent, your music, your art, your poetry, your comedy. All of that is needed. If you look at history, you look at the South African freedom struggle, you look at the civil rights movement in this country. Every successful social movement globally has had music, art, technology, poetry, all of it. Sculpture, all sorts of things in it. And we need all of the talent that our rich communities have if we're gonna be successful in achieving justice in the longer term.\r\n\r\nEd: <\/b>[00:41:51] But you should only bring your music if you actually have any musical talent, right?\r\n\r\n[Kamau laughs]\r\n\r\nKamau:<\/b> [00:41:56] There\u2019s that Chicago, there's that Chicago, that hardcore Chicago.\r\n\r\nChandra:<\/b> [00:41:59] There you go. There you [00:42:00] go. Fair point.\r\n\r\nEd: <\/b>[00:42:01] Always gotta check, always gotta check. [Laughing]\r\n\r\nChandra:<\/b> [00:42:02] Don't bring bad music. Don't, don't bring bad skills. No bad music, but don't bring bad skills. Uh, well, we're gonna end since, uh, since, uh, Ed, in classic Chicago fashion left us with, with a joke. What is giving you each hope right now? We'll start with you, Ed, what is giving you, I hear Ed, that there may be a granddaughter that you may\u2026\r\n\r\nEd:<\/b> [00:42:19] Uh, you know, yes. I, I did share this, you know, I, a month after the inauguration of Donald Trump for the second time, my first grandchild was born. And every minute that I spend with her gives me hope. Every time I see a photo and I think about, you know, what that future looks like for her, it gives me hope and it gives me purpose to keep going and, and so she really is my inspiration and my hope.\r\n\r\nKamau:<\/b> [00:42:46] Nice. Nice.\r\n\r\nChandra:<\/b> [00:42:48] That's so beautiful. How can I possibly follow that up?\r\n\r\nKamau:<\/b> [00:42:50] [Laughing] I put you in a bad spot. Do you have a great granddaughter who was born recently?\r\n\r\nChandra:<\/b> [00:42:56] I'm gonna go back historically, and I'm a, I'm a student of history and particularly civil rights [00:43:00] history, and I think about the great, one of my heroes of great W.B. DuBois, who died at like age of 93 or 94, never lived to see the Civil Rights Act of 1964, had given his whole life to the principles embodied in that vital piece of legislation and never lived to see it.\r\n\r\nChandra:<\/b> [00:43:16] But, would we say that his life was not impactful? Would we say that all the, the struggles that he was part of and all the scholarship be created and all the movements that he helped to support were, were not impactful? Not at all. So we may not yet live to see all the change that we want to deliver in this world, we may not, you know, as Dr. King said, we, we may not make it there, but we have to do the fight. We have to be engaged, and we have to make whatever contribution we can in the time that we have. So I think about DuBois and I think about our forefathers and foremothers in the struggle, and this is our chance to try to make a difference and, and leave this country better than we found it.\r\n\r\nKamau:<\/b> [00:43:50] Well thank you to both of you for this. Uh, I feel like we could keep talking about this, but from all the calendar notifications you all have things you need to be getting to, but I [00:44:00] appreciate all the work you're doing and obviously we should probably say also people should probably head to ACLU.org to connect with all of these issues and more there. So thank you both for stopping by today. [outro music plays]\r\n\r\nEd:<\/b> [00:44:09] Thanks so much.\r\n\r\nChandra:<\/b> [00:44:10] Thanks so much. Such a pleasure.\r\n\r\nKamau:<\/b> [00:44:13] Thank you. Next, we're speaking with Monica Hopkins. She's the executive director of the ACLU of D.C. and she's joining us on the heels of a major lawsuit coming out of D.C.. Now, if we could get the rights of the Darth Vader theme music we\u2019d play it here, but you know, it's expensive so you're just gonna have to use your imagination. Maybe I can hum it. [Kamau hums \u201cThe Imperial March\u201d from Star Wars<\/i>]\r\n\r\nKamau:<\/b> [00:44:40] To say that I'm a big fan of Washington, D.C. as a city. I didn't start really going there. I went as a kid, the way you go is like, \u2018that's this thing.\u2019 But it wasn't until I was an adult where I got to really know the city better. And I was like, I've often said like, I could live here. And then my wife's like, \u2018snow!\u2019 and I'm like, I guess I couldn't live here. [Monica laughs]\r\n\r\nKamau:<\/b> [00:44:56] But, uh, so, but I am a, I think people often, and you know, you can speak to [00:45:00] this, confuse the city of Washington, D.C. with the federal government. Even though there are overlap, 'cause a lot of people in the city of D.C. work in the federal government, 'cause that's the factory, as I've talked about. But uh, yeah, just so there's a, there's certainly, um, you know, it's, it, it, it's if you can just speak to that a little bit, the, the, the, the city of D.C. as a live and breathing thing.\r\n\r\nMonica:<\/b> [00:45:24] Yeah. It, it's really interesting because I've heard D.C. be talked about as an industry town.\r\n\r\nKamau:<\/b> [00:45:30] Yeah.\r\n\r\nMonica:<\/b> [00:44:30] Right. So, uh, like Detroit had the auto industry and you know, D.C. has the federal government as our industry. And so when you talk to lots of people about, \u2018oh, you came to D.C. for a job,\u2019 or \u2018you're living in D.C. they may have a federal job.\u2019 Um, I, for one actually came to D.C to work in local D.C. stuff. Uh, you know, I had parents who were, uh, federal workers, [00:46:00] um, but they were very, very involved in their local community, really involved in their ANCs, if you wanna talk about what those are. Um, and really knew the history of place, um, for D.C. And not a lot of people come to D.C. and go, \u2018oh, great, there's this monument. There's this monument, there's where government happens now I'm gonna get off the mall,\u2019\r\n\r\nKamau:<\/b> [00:46:24] Mm-hmm. Yeah.\r\n\r\nMonica:<\/b> [00:46:25] \u2018And actually figure out how people live and what the culture of this place.\u2019\r\n\r\nKamau:<\/b> [00:46:29] Let's go to Anacostia and see what's going on over there.\r\n\r\nMonica:<\/b> [00:46:31] Yeah, yeah! So, um, and once you do that, you realize it's a, an incredibly vibrant, creative place with a long, long sense of history, that's important, especially in this time to remember. And also, just like any other place, people are really proud of the places they come from. Um, and I think D.C. is no different.\r\n\r\nKamau:<\/b> [00:46:55] Yeah, for sure. Uh, we are taping this, I'm saying this in all [00:47:00] the interviews recently. So we're taping this on October 27th. Uh, I guess I'd say year 2025, just in case things, you know, a year from now, in case October 27th means something different. But, uh, so can you just give us the latest out of D.C. as terms of deployments and like, I mean, D.C. was the first city that, that got this wave of federal troops and ICE agents and National Guard. Uh, can you tell us what's happening as of today with what everything going on?\r\n\r\nMonica:<\/b> [00:47:27] Yeah. So, um, just to recap, on August 11th, um, the president announced actually two things. So I think it's important to articulate this so people understand the difference between D.C. and some of the other places deployments are happening, um, because D.C.'s not a state, so on a. August 11th, um, the president, uh, called up the National Guard, the D.C. National Guard. Um, the president has authority over the D.C. National Guard because we are not a [00:48:00] state. Um, and he also invoked Section 740 of the Home Rule Act. The Home Rule Act is what gives us limited self-governance.\r\n\r\nMonica:<\/b> [00:48:10] And Section 740 had never been invoked before. Uh, and that gave the president the right to essentially federalize the Metropolitan Police Department for 48 hours. And then he notified Congress that he wanted them for an additional 30 days. Uh, and that, you know, section 740 is really for emergency purposes to, uh, for federal purposes, um, that 30 days has lapsed, however, the mayor has said that, you know, MPD, Metropolitan Police Department will continue, uh, supporting and operating with federal uh, agents. Uh, and in the meantime, the president called on other states to send their National Guards\r\n\r\nMonica:<\/b> [00:49:00] to uh, D.C. and so there are five other states that have sent their National Guard, we're at about. 2,500 National Guard troops here in D.C. and that's, that is, uh, what is going on right now. And it's important to remember also that, um, the president on January 6th seemed to think he did not have control over, uh, the D.C. National Guard and couldn't call out the National Guard in that emergency. But all of a sudden remembered he had this, right. Uh, to call up the National Guard. So that's what's going on now. Um, in addition, our D.C.AG has sued the president over the use of National Guard here in D.C. um, and that hearing was on Friday.\r\n\r\nKamau:<\/b> [00:49:48] And what is life like, and, I mean, I know you can't speak for the entire city, but I would just say, what are you hearing about, like, for residents of D.C., like what are the National Guard doing? You know, are they standing on corners, just all, you [00:50:00] know, ready to go? Or are they, what are they doing?\r\n\r\nMonica:<\/b> [00:50:03] Yeah, it, it's odd. Um, I think there have been reports of how many, you know, pounds of trash they've picked up. Um, I think some folks are saying, you know, that the National Gardeners.\r\n\r\nKamau:<\/b> [00:50:14] [Laughing] National Gardeners, so at least you're getting some the good out of it, I guess.\r\n\r\nMonica:<\/b> [00:50:20] I, yeah, I mean, and this is not, I mean, I, I, I wanna say this is not sort of what, uh, the folks who signed up to be part of the National Guard signed up for. Um, you know, you think of the National Guard, you think those are the folks who come in when there are floods or tornadoes or like to really help in these situations and they're called up when there are real emergencies.\r\n\r\nMonica:<\/b> [00:50:44] We remember that the National Guard was called up to actually help in some of the desegregation of schools, right. Like here in D.C. at the start of school, they were actually given the [00:51:00] order that they could be armed, in D.C. Um, and so what we saw on the ground were parents creating walking school buses to take their children to school.\r\n\r\nMonica:<\/b> [00:51:13] Um, I'm a big women's soccer fan. And so you come out, you know, I speak from experience coming out of a game, super excited, you know, and seeing four or five National Guards members with automatic weapons standing on the corner, right? Like walking through the park, near my house, coming home from dinner, and you know, three or four National Guard members standing there in the park. And we have to say, this is, this is to normalize it, right? Just standing around, um, people might say, well, they're not doing anything.\r\n\r\nKamau:<\/b> [00:51:48] Yeah.\r\n\r\nMonica:<\/b> [00:51:49] That is the purpose, to normalize it. Yes. It's not normal.\r\n\r\nKamau:<\/b> [00:51:54] Yeah. So as you're saying, the purpose is to normalize shows of force in American cities. So we just sort of think, I guess [00:52:00] this is just what it needs. This is what, this is where we're at now, and not to find it disturbing. And how has this been for, you know, we've talked about this before, but like for the residents, like maybe you go out for a protest for the, like No Kings Day, but then you're also just a person who's like, I gotta go to work, or I gotta go to school. And like you said, the walking school buses. I would imagine that there's a, a chilling effect.\r\n\r\nMonica:<\/b> [00:52:20] Yeah, I, it's hit our economy. Um, there were reports, uh, you know, from the Washington Post that, uh, this happened during, or right before, uh, restaurant week in,\r\n\r\nKamau:<\/b> [00:52:34] Oh, wow. Yeah.\r\n\r\nMonica:<\/b> [00:52:36] Right. And so, uh, this compounding sort of downturn, um, in the economy. Uh, you know, I, I mentioned walking across the park, uh, from dinner, uh, coming home from dinner and in the dark, right? Like it's a normal walk home. Uh, it has a little bit of a chilling effect for me, like thinking, oh, I walk across the park, I see, you know, [00:53:00] National Guard members, um, and you know, I think that is what we are seeing and what we are feeling here on the ground. As well as, you know, this is also part of the same, uh, immigration enforcement type, because it's not the National Guard just alone. There's National Guard, there are also other agencies. Um, uh, in addition to MPD. So when the mayor essentially said, \u2018we will continue working, uh, with federal agents,\u2019 MPD said that they would work with ICE and immigration enforcement.\r\n\r\nMonica:<\/b> [00:53:42] Um, and so we have seen, you know, raids on businesses, uh, so going into businesses, in communities, at traffic stops, um, so those sorts of things. Uh, we have a case actually, um, around that [00:54:00] immigration enforcement and the, uh, warrantless, uh, arrests that we've been seeing with people.\r\n\r\nKamau:<\/b> [00:54:06] So, as you've talked about, you have a case. What, what are all the different things that ACLU is getting involved in in D.C. right now? [Both chuckle] The, how are the affiliates handling this?\r\n\r\nMonica:<\/b> [00:54:17] Yeah, I think one of the biggest things that has been really helpful is our Know Your Rights information. Um, you know, and, and it could seem like, oh, that doesn't seem like a whole lot, but that is sort of the frontline for us, for people to know what their rights are, to be able to defend their rights, um, and for us to also know what's going on on the ground. So we have sort of. Printed and sent out, um, through our, uh, coalition partners and, and organizations, about 40,000 Know Your Rights, uh, pieces of information.\r\n\r\nKamau:<\/b> [00:54:56] Oh, wow.\r\n\r\nMonica:<\/b> [00:54:58] We've translated, uh, [00:55:00] into the four primary languages here in D.C. uh, on our website. And that's, you know, we had to update that. Know Your Rights information of not just when encountering police, but when encountering police and military. We have created an immigrants\u2019 rights hub on our website where people can go and find information.\r\n\r\nMonica:<\/b> [00:55:35] Um, but we've also filed an amicus brief in the D.C. uh, Attorney General's lawsuit. Uh, we filed that case that I talked about, um, with the immigration enforcement. And then you may have heard last week, um, and you'll see me kind of smiling, but we defended a protester's First Amendment right to play the Imperial March.\r\n\r\nKamau:<\/b> [00:55:49] Oh, yes! That was my next question.\r\n\r\nMonica:<\/b> [00:55:56] [Laughs] I, I mean the, it's so great, right? So tell me, yeah, tell, let's just\r\n\r\nKamau:<\/b> [00:55:57] Tell me, tell me about that case. Start from the top. It's a [00:56:00] Sam O'Hara in the Imperial March, which sounds like a great, uh, punk rock band from the early eighties, but yes.\r\n\r\nMonica:<\/b> [00:56:06] Oh, that is a good punk rock band name.\r\n\r\nKamau:<\/b> [00:56:09] Yeah. And D.C.'s got a proud punk rock history, so it works.\r\n\r\nMonica:<\/b> [00:56:11] Seriously. Um, so essentially Sam O'Hara was, uh, taking a, you know, a speaker and, uh, on a walk following National Guard members and playing the Imperial March, which is Darth Vader's theme from Star Wars. Mm-hmm. And a National Guard member turned around and said, \u2018do you want me to call, uh, Metro PD,\u2019 which is the first clue that the National Guard's member isn't from D.C. Um, you know, Metro PD is our, our transit police. Don\u2019t know why, don\u2019t know why we'd call Metro\u2026\r\n\r\nKamau:<\/b> [00:56:47] [Laughing] That's funny. Do we call the health inspector? I mean, you can if you want to, isn't it?\r\n\r\nMonica:<\/b> [00:56:58] yeah, yeah. Um, so this National Guards [00:57:00] member who was from Ohio, turned around, said, do you want me to call the police? Um, and you know, Sam knew his rights. He, he protests in dc he knew his rights and so he continued to follow them. Uh, this guards member did call Metro, uh, not Metro PD, called the Metropolitan Police Department. And four officers, uh, handcuffed Sam, they detained him. Um, and then they let him go. Um, and that was in violation of Sam's First Amendment right.\r\n\r\nMonica:<\/b> [00:57:34] But also his Fourth Amendment, by detaining him. By seizing him. Um, and so we filed suit on Sam's behalf, uh, to protect his right, but also it's the principle of the matter that. The government can be the punchline in your protest or the object of your satire. Uh, and it is constitutionally protected.\r\n\r\nKamau:<\/b> [00:58:00] Wow. It's, it's amazing to think that, um, all the different things that would come together to make this happen, [both giggle] that, that starts with, uh, just a simple, such a simple song. The Imperial March, Darth Vader's theme from, from Star Wars. Just what a, uh, yeah, like, just the, this, it, it's like the writers of idiocracy are like running out of ideas. It's just like, this is, this is where we're at.\r\n\r\nMonica:<\/b> [00:58:21] I, I mean, I think it points to the absurdity. Right. Like the absurdity of having National Guards members on the streets of D.C. for this manufactured emergency about crime.\r\n\r\nKamau:<\/b> [00:58:35] Mm-hmm.\r\n\r\nMonica:<\/b> [00:58:36] And what is more, you know, uh. Apt to call attention to the absurdity than being absurd and,\r\n\r\nKamau:<\/b> [00:58:45] yes.\r\n\r\nMonica:<\/b> [00:58:46] Marching with the National Guard to the tune of the Imperial March.\r\n\r\nKamau:<\/b> [00:58:47] And also just the idea that somebody called the cops on you because they, they felt mocked, like, [both laugh] I feel like you're mocking me. I better call the police. Like, just the idea that like, right. [00:59:00] So, uh, and how's the lawsuit going?\r\n\r\nMonica:<\/b> [00:59:03] Well, we just filed last week, so time will tell.\r\n\r\nKamau:<\/b> [00:59:05] Okay. Okay. All right. Time will tell. Oh, time, always telling, but not, but not timely enough. So I think the one thing we also wanna focus on, we've talked about this on this show before. I've talked about this a lot in my other work, and, but it can't not be talked about enough.\r\n\r\nKamau:<\/b> [00:59:21] It's just the idea of how D.C.'s, lack of statehood puts the residents of D.C. in, in a, just a much more vulnerable position than people in other states who are already in vulnerable positions.\r\n\r\nMonica:<\/b> [00:59:32]Yeah. So, you know, we've already talked about the National Guard. Um, so in states, uh, the governor has the right to call up the National Guard or the right to send the National Guard. Uh, you know, we have seen this in other places where governors have said no, absolutely not. Um, and so the other ways I think are really important for people to understand how D.C. operates and [01:00:00] bust a couple of myths possibly. Um, and. Really, I call this the civics lesson, inside the civics lesson when it comes to D.C.\r\n\r\nKamau:<\/b> [01:00:10] So the call is coming from inside the civics lesson.\r\n\r\nMonica:<\/b> [01:00:13] Basically! And so there are three ways that sort of, uh, Congress can intervene, uh, in D.C. So the first is they can directly legislate on D.C. Um, the second is that in the federal appropriations process, they can put riders on the federal appropriations or the federal budget to tell D.C. how we can spend our own budget, the money that we raise and out of taxes and spend to run D.C.\r\n\r\nMonica:<\/b> [01:00:49] And they can also, um, pass what are known as disapproval resolutions to overturn D.C.'s laws. [01:01:00] Because under the Home Rule Act, D.C. uh, basically makes our own laws. We pass our own laws. We, uh, have a functioning government, we have a budget. So we operate sort of like a state, uh, with a city council that is sort of like a state legislature and a mayor who is sort of like a governor. Um, but Congress can intervene in all of those ways and I, I don't think that residents of Idaho would like, if the residents of Colorado said, no, no, no, we don't like your laws, so we're gonna overturn them.\r\n\r\nKamau:<\/b> [01:01:41] [Laughing] Yeah. Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.\r\n\r\nMonica:<\/b> [01:01:42] Hey, we know you raised all that money, but we don't want you to spend any money on, you know, uh, marijuana legalization, which is what happened to D.C.\r\n\r\nKamau:<\/b> [01:01:50] Yeah. Even though we don't live there and we're not really in the community there, you know? We work from remote, we, we don't. Yeah, yeah.\r\n\r\nMonica:<\/b> [01:01:58] yeah. And, and so what we're [01:02:00] seeing right now really is in this Congress, more introductions of bills to try to legislate directly on D.C. um, and more riders on the federal budget to tell D.C. how we can spend our money, um, which have huge ramifications uh, on how D.C. can deal with, with things like public safety, um, but also education, traffic safety issues. Um, and you know, it's really weird to think that we live in the only capital city in the world where the residents do not have a vote and do not have a voice in what we supposedly call a representative democracy.\r\n\r\nKamau:<\/b> [01:02:58] Wow. So, [01:03:00] other than the Star Wars soundtrack, how are people in D.C. resisting? Not that the Star Wars soundtrack is not a powerful way to resist, we've seen, but how are, how have you seen people in D.C. resisting?\r\n\r\nMonica:<\/b> [01:03:11] Uh, I mean, I think that. A lot of folks are familiar. Maybe, maybe there aren't folks, maybe I just live in, in the bubble, but, um, you know, we had not only with No Kings, uh, you know, I think across the nation there were about 7 million folks who turned out to those no Kings rallies. Mm-hmm. But what we are seeing is, you know, Free D.C. is just this collaboration of folks and neighbors and, um, who, you know, a bunch of organizations in D.C. had a, we are all D.C. Right, like, and there is no moment in sort of, at least my history, where I think as a nation, um, who believes in democracy that people can't get behind [01:04:00] this fact of, right now we're feeling all like D.C.\r\n\r\nMonica:<\/b> [01:04:04] Um, that things are being stripped away. I also see people resisting, um, in the way that they are showing up for, uh, each other and showing up. Um, you know, it, the government shutdown has huge ramifications here. In, in D.C. um, you know, there are multiple organizations who are doing lots of litigation, not just the ACLU, um, but it's also local businesses who are, you know, saying, come on in, we'll give you a free lunch. Right. Who, who gets free lunch these days?\r\n\r\nKamau:<\/b> [01:04:37] Nice, Yeah.\r\n\r\nMonica:<\/b> [01:04:38] But also, you know, communities taking care of each other through mutual aid, um, which is necessary at this time. And those little pieces, are resistance in addition to contacting, uh, folks who do not live in D.C. and telling them, \u2018this is really important. [01:05:00] This is why it's important, and we need you to contact your congressional members to, to bring it up in situations in your state.\u2019\r\n\r\nMonica:<\/b> [01:05:08] And we have a lot of resources if, if people want to do that on our site, on the ACLUDC website where you can get involved and tell people how they can help D.C. get out from under, uh, Trump's power grab.\r\n\r\nKamau:<\/b> [01:05:24] Yeah. I think it's important for people who don't live in D.C. have never been to D.C. don't, may maybe only know about D.C. from the evening news, that it's actually important for all Americans that D.C. have the right to govern itself.\r\n\r\nMonica:<\/b> [01:05:37] Yeah. I mean, I, I think D.C. is sort of a, a testing ground, right. And the Trump administration knows this, that's why on August 11th he said, we're gonna start with D.C. And, uh, you know, I think maybe it was Maya Angelou who said, you know, \u2018when someone shows you who they are, believe them.\u2019\r\n\r\nKamau:<\/b> [01:05:59] Yep, yep, yep, yep, yep.\r\n\r\nMonica:<\/b> [01:06:00] And so I think people should be watching D.C. And the rest of the nation should say, we're gonna resist when they start with D.C.\r\n\r\nKamau:<\/b> [01:06:09] Yes. Yes.\r\n\r\nMonica:<\/b> [01:06:10] And, um, and that is a really powerful, powerful thing.\r\n\r\nKamau:<\/b> [01:06:13] And it's also D.C. is one of those cities that often gets sort of, uh, I don't even know what the word is, but sort of like called a, you know, called a war zone or called a crime ridden, blah, blah, blah. You know, all these things that just becomes, for people who've never been D.C. just becomes, that's just what it is. If you show one image from something bad happening in D.C. happens in Chicago, happens. I live in Oakland, same thing. People think that's the entire city, you know?\r\n\r\nMonica:<\/b> [01:06:38] Yeah. I mean, you know, I think this is what we have to take on head on, right? Like \u2018war zone,\u2019 uh, you know, \u2018crime ridden.\u2019 All this stuff, that's code.\r\n\r\nKamau:<\/b> [01:06:50] Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.\r\n\r\nMonica:<\/b> [01:06:52] And what it's code for is this is a majority minority city. These are, when you talk about Oakland, and [01:07:00] Chicago, and D.C. these are Black cities.\r\n\r\nKamau:<\/b> [01:07:02] Yes, yes.\r\n\r\nMonica:<\/b> [01:07:03] This was once Chocolate City, Right? And we cannot gloss over the fact that those sort of, um, just to be blunt, you know, like Black equals criminal, and this is why war zone, all these things, we cannot let go of the fact that this is about racial justice. It is about our democracy, and it is about having a democracy, uh, that includes all of us and. Of course, this is sort of on the radar to demonize these places in this way.\r\n\r\nKamau:<\/b> [01:07:37] Uh, so before I let you go, thank you for your time again. It's good to see you again. Different circumstances. Uh, what's next for the, for the D.C. affiliate in terms of these deployments, you know, I know you have that case. We'll find out what time will tell with Sam O'Hara and his punk band, the Imperial, uh, what is that? [both laugh] The, the Imperial March. Sam [01:08:00] O'Hara and the Imperial March when their new album comes out. What's next for the affiliates? What are, what are you, how are you all fighting in the, fighting for the communities in D.C.?\r\n\r\nMonica:<\/b> [01:08:08] Yeah, so, uh, we're fighting on two fronts, really. Um, we will continue watching our litigation, um, and being on the forefront of that. Um, we also, in our policy work, uh, we do have a council session, so we have to do that local work, but also, um, there are 14 bills in Congress right now and the appropriations process, so we wanna make sure that, you know, we preserve, protect and defend the rights of D.C. residents, um, and all who come to visit here. So we'll be watching those closely and calling the rest of the nation to, uh, protect and defend D.C. and D.C. home rule.\r\n\r\nKamau:<\/b> [01:08:47] Yes. Before I let you go, two last questions, or, the three last questions. This is the speed round, maybe four last questions, we'll find out as we go together.\r\n\r\nMonica:<\/b> [01:08:56] Perfect.\r\n\r\nKamau:<\/b> [01:08:57] Uh, if listeners remember one thing from this conversation, what should it be? And if [01:09:00] listeners do one thing from this conversation, what should it be?\r\n\r\nMonica:<\/b> [01:09:03] Hmm. So, remember that D.C. does not have statehood and needs the rest of the nation to protect D.C. as the front line of democracy. One act they take from the this conversation is to call your congressional members and say, hands off D.C.\r\n\r\nKamau:<\/b> [01:09:25] That's a good, that's a great one. That's a great one. What's given you hope, a conversation or a, or a, something you've seen or something that's given you hope recently about all this?\r\n\r\nMonica:<\/b> [01:09:35] You know, recently Jane Goodall passed away. And she said, you know, uh, hope is an action. Um, and so we have to put that in action and it doesn't matter what it is. So this, coming together, the kids in my neighborhood made free D.C. signs that they are selling for, you know, [01:10:00] 5 dollars and 10 cents. Hence, you know,\r\n\r\nKamau:<\/b> [01:10:01] Oh, wow. 5 dollars and 10 cents! 51. There's 50 states and if we get 51! Oh, nice, nice.\r\n\r\nMonica:<\/b> [01:10:10] Yeah! Smart kids. Um, so, you know, I think these everyday actions are really giving me hope, um, and that we're all in this together.\r\n\r\nKamau:<\/b> [01:10:28] Nice, well, thank you for talking to me today. I really appreciate it. Yeah. Uh, you know, it's good to know that the, the good fight is happening out there in D.C., and also as all of these sort of federal deployments move across the country, it's also, once it something falls outta the news cycle, we're not, we sort of think, oh, it must be fine there. So it's good to check back in on D.C. Yeah.\r\n\r\nMonica:<\/b> [01:10:39] Yeah. Well, thank you for having me. It was great to catch up again.\r\n\r\nKamau:<\/b> [01:10:42] Yeah, it's good to see you. Thanks again to our guests, Chandra, Ed, and Monica, and thanks to you for listening. Want to get involved? Well, there are two actions you can take right now at where else? aclu.org. One makes it clear to Congress that military troops do not belong on our streets. [01:11:00] The other calls for passage of the Visible Act, which would require federal agents to wear visible IDs and stop them from wearing face coverings. Head to action.aclu.org to learn more.\r\n\r\nKamau:<\/b> [01:11:12] Still curious about the deployments? Good. You should be. Thankfully, the ACLU'S got a great explainer. You can head over to YouTube for a conversation with the ACLU's Hina Shamsi now. We've got the link in the episode description.\r\n\r\nKamau:<\/b> [01:11:28] Thank you so much for listening. If you enjoyed this episode of At Liberty, please subscribe on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. If you haven't already, rate the show and leave us a review, and you can also tell us what's giving you hope right now. [outro music plays]\r\n\r\nKamau:<\/b> [01:11:40] At Liberty is a production of the ACLU, in conjunction with who Knows Best Productions, which is Melissa Hudson Bell, PhD, and me! For the ACLU, our senior executive producer is Sam Riddell. Our executive producer is Jessica Herman Weitz, and our intern is Madhvi Khianra. At Liberty is produced and edited by Erica Getto and [01:12:00] Mariah Gossett for Good Get. And this episode is recorded at the Great Skyline Studios in Oakland, California. Brian! Until next time, I'm your host, W. Kamau Bell.","components":[{"acf_fc_layout":"text","text":{"text":"Frog costumes. The Star Wars theme. Whistlemania. These could be the sights and sounds of Halloween\u2014but this year, they've taken on new meaning. As federal agents and military troops arrive in their cities across the country, communities have used pop culture references, humor, and irreverence as an act of resilience. They\u2019ve also banded together to form school escorts and other protective measures for their neighbors. This week, we\u2019re exploring how residents of three cities have met this moment. We have three ACLU experts joining us. First up, we have Chandra S. Bhatnagar and Ed Yohnka of the ACLU of Southern California and Illinois. And around the 46-minute mark, Monica Hopkins of the ACLU of DC joins Kamau to discuss deployments in the nation\u2019s capital.\r\n\r\nWant to get involved? Here are two actions you can take right now:\r\n\r\naction.aclu.org\/send-message\/tell-congress-no-troops-our-streets<\/a>\r\n\r\naction.aclu.org\/send-message\/tell-congress-stop-masked-agents <\/a>\r\n\r\nAnd if you\u2019re still curious about the deployments, there\u2019s a great explainer on YouTube: \u201cAsk an ACLU Expert: President Trump\u2019s Deployment of Federal Forces to Our Communities\u201d with Hina Shamsi.\r\n\r\nhttps:\/\/youtu.be\/1wQLAqD-KFM?si=LGsW6vlAM_A-1WKo<\/a>"}}],"we_want_to_hear_from_you":"","participants":[132234,1332,619,2511],"links":{"spotify":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/episode\/5wwwUj2VLyXJyOKck4KQdr?si=5MaBN1wxTBWsLbKuKHCqpg","apple_podcasts":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/deployments-at-our-doorstep\/id1396174920?i=1000734368184"},"related_news_articles":"","issues":[46591,46529,46373],"related_content_cases":"","related_affiliates":[334,367,371]},"yoast_head":"\nAmerican Civil Liberties Union<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"As federal agents and military troops arrive in their cities across the country, communities have used pop culture references, humor, and irreverence as an act of resilience.\" \/>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"en_US\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:title\" content=\"Deployments At Our Doorstep | American Civil Liberties Union\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:description\" content=\"As federal agents and military troops arrive in their cities across the country, communities have used pop culture references, humor, and irreverence as an act of resilience.\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:url\" content=\"https:\/\/www.aclu.org\/podcast\/deployments-at-our-doorstep\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:site_name\" content=\"American Civil Liberties Union\" \/>\n<meta property=\"article:modified_time\" content=\"2025-11-04T16:53:45+00:00\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:image\" content=\"https:\/\/assets.aclu.org\/live\/uploads\/2025\/10\/AtLiberty_Delployments_EpArt-1.png\" \/>\n\t<meta property=\"og:image:width\" content=\"1080\" \/>\n\t<meta property=\"og:image:height\" content=\"1080\" \/>\n\t<meta property=\"og:image:type\" content=\"image\/png\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:card\" content=\"summary_large_image\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:site\" content=\"@aclu\" \/>\n<script type=\"application\/ld+json\" class=\"yoast-schema-graph\">{\"@context\":\"https:\/\/schema.org\",\"@graph\":[{\"@type\":\"WebPage\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.aclu.org\/podcast\/deployments-at-our-doorstep\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/www.aclu.org\/podcast\/deployments-at-our-doorstep\",\"name\":\"Deployments At Our Doorstep | American Civil Liberties Union\",\"isPartOf\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.aclu.org\/#website\"},\"primaryImageOfPage\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.aclu.org\/podcast\/deployments-at-our-doorstep#primaryimage\"},\"image\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.aclu.org\/podcast\/deployments-at-our-doorstep#primaryimage\"},\"thumbnailUrl\":\"https:\/\/assets.aclu.org\/live\/uploads\/2025\/10\/AtLiberty_Delployments_EpArt-1.png\",\"datePublished\":\"2025-10-31T13:41:41+00:00\",\"dateModified\":\"2025-11-04T16:53:45+00:00\",\"description\":\"As federal agents and military troops arrive in their cities across the country, communities have used pop culture references, humor, and irreverence as an act of resilience.\",\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\",\"potentialAction\":[{\"@type\":\"ReadAction\",\"target\":[\"https:\/\/www.aclu.org\/podcast\/deployments-at-our-doorstep\"]}]},{\"@type\":\"ImageObject\",\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.aclu.org\/podcast\/deployments-at-our-doorstep#primaryimage\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/assets.aclu.org\/live\/uploads\/2025\/10\/AtLiberty_Delployments_EpArt-1.png\",\"contentUrl\":\"https:\/\/assets.aclu.org\/live\/uploads\/2025\/10\/AtLiberty_Delployments_EpArt-1.png\",\"width\":1080,\"height\":1080},{\"@type\":\"WebSite\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.aclu.org\/#website\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/www.aclu.org\/\",\"name\":\"American Civil Liberties Union\",\"description\":\"The ACLU dares to create a more perfect union \u2014 beyond one person, party, or side. 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