{"id":203004,"date":"2025-03-28T08:00:47","date_gmt":"2025-03-28T12:00:47","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.aclu.org\/?post_type=podcast&p=203004"},"modified":"2025-03-28T09:24:52","modified_gmt":"2025-03-28T13:24:52","slug":"free-mahmoud-khalil-with-ben-wizner-and-baher-azmy","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/www.aclu.org\/podcast\/free-mahmoud-khalil-with-ben-wizner-and-baher-azmy","title":{"rendered":"Free Mahmoud Khalil with Ben Wizner and Baher Azmy"},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

Mahmoud Khalil is a recent Columbia University graduate, activist, soon-to-be father, and U.S. green card holder. On March 8, he was unlawfully detained because of his speech in defense of Palestinian human rights. On this week\u2019s episode of At Liberty, host W. Kamau Bell is joined by two members of Khalil\u2019s legal team\u2014the ACLU\u2019s Ben Wizner and Baher Azmy from Center for Constitutional Rights\u2014to discuss why his case should raise alarm bells for anyone who cares about free speech.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"featured_media":201290,"template":"","series":[],"class_list":["post-203004","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry"],"acf":{"date":"20250328","audio":203006,"transcript":"Free Mahmoud Khalil with Ben Wizner and Baher Azmy<\/b>\r\n\r\n[00:00:00] Kamau:<\/b> Hey everyone, it's me, W. Kamau Bell. Welcome back to the ACLU\u2019s podcast At Liberty. And of course, I'm your host. Every episode, I'm asking the big questions on the big issues affecting our big country, especially questions affecting our hardest hit and most vulnerable communities. And I'm calling [00:00:20] on experts from the ACLU and beyond!\r\n\r\n[00:00:23] Kamau:<\/b> And they're gonna gimme lots of guidance. As you all know, I need lots of guidance. Last episode, we covered the current state of disability rights and envisioned a more sustainable, thoughtful care system. If you listened, you know that we talked about the 504 Sit-In. In 1977, a group of disabled [00:00:40] protestors occupied a federal building in San Francisco for a record-breaking 25 days.\r\n\r\n[00:00:45] Kamau:<\/b> These activists were brave and they were vocal, and they knew that their right to speak up could lead<\/i> to their civil rights. We're recording this on Monday, March 24th, and today we're exploring that First Amendment right to free speech with a focus [00:01:00] on the case of Mahmoud Khalil. Khalil is a recent Columbia University graduate student, activist, soon-to-be father, and legal permanent resident of the United States of America.\r\n\r\n[00:01:10] Kamau:<\/b> That part is super important. And on March 8th, he was unlawfully detained by ICE because of his speech in support of Palestinian rights. He's now on [00:01:20] trial for exercising his voice, and that should alarm us all\u2014no matter what side of the political aisle you're on. Alright, everybody. This is a big one.\r\n\r\n[00:01:27] Kamau:<\/b> Let's take a breath. You got this and the ACLU\u2019s got you. Let's get into it. We have two guests joining us today, 'cause this is a big issue, so we need two [00:01:40] experts. Ben Wizner is the director of the ACLU'S Speech, Privacy and Technology Project. He works to protect and expand the First Amendment freedoms of expression, association, and inquiry.\r\n\r\n[00:01:51] Kamau:<\/b> And little known fact: me and Ben had dinner probably 15 years ago before I was who I was. So he was a nice guy. He met with an unknown [00:02:00] comedian. He's also working to ensure that civil liberties are enhanced rather than compromised by new advances in scientific technology. Baher Azmy is the legal director of the Center for Constitutional Rights.\r\n\r\n[00:02:11] Kamau:<\/b> He directs all litigation around issues related to the promotion of civil and human rights. Hey, welcome to the show, Ben and Baher. So [00:02:20] first of all, thank you for being here. Personally, I have been very interested in the case of Mahmoud Khalil, so I'm very excited to talk to the both of you about this, to me.\r\n\r\n[00:02:29] Kamau:<\/b> And please correct me if I'm wrong, this seems like a very scary tipping point. And I'm actually happy, I'm happy it's recorded, but I would want to have this conversation if there wasn't a podcast. So thank you for being here.\r\n\r\n[00:02:39] Baher:<\/b> My [00:02:40] pleasure. I agree. This is a pivot point in this moment, a chance for us to understand the broader stakes about this individual target and what it means for the rest of us.\r\n\r\n[00:02:51] Baher:<\/b> So I'm happy to be here talking about it.\r\n\r\n[00:02:53] Kamau:<\/b> Thank you. Ben, what's your thought?\r\n\r\n[00:02:55] Ben:<\/b> I think we keep on ending up at the bottom of a new slippery slope. You [00:03:00] know, look, I started at the ACLU a month before 9\/11. So it's not a first rodeo when it comes to things that I never thought would happen in this country.\r\n\r\n[00:03:09] Ben:<\/b> But this? Add this to the list of cases that I did not think that I would have to be involved in the United States of America. Someone to whom we've given lawful residence, being [00:03:20] ripped from his family with the goal of ripping him from the country for nothing more than speech which the president disagrees with.\r\n\r\n[00:03:28] Ben:<\/b> That doesn't feel like America, and I hope the courts will agree.\r\n\r\n[00:03:31] Kamau:<\/b> I agree. I, I\u2014I really hope<\/i> that, yeah, hope<\/i> seems like too small of a word, I guess, but, like, 'cause it seems like if they don't agree, I don't know that this is the country that we were told it was [00:03:40] when we were in school. So, yeah. I feel, I feel the same way.\r\n\r\n[00:03:43] Kamau:<\/b> First of all, just start, I usually start by asking guests how they're doing, but that seems like sort of an insignificant question considering what you're engaged in. So, and I don't know how direct, how much direct contact you have with Mahmoud, but how is Mahmoud doing?\r\n\r\n[00:03:56] Baher:<\/b> Yeah, so we, as a result of our initial [00:04:00] kind of emergency motion before the federal judge in New York, we secured promise of robust council access.\r\n\r\n[00:04:09] Baher:<\/b> I wouldn't say robust<\/i>, but at least council access. So we're able to schedule video calls with him, his legal team, and have been talking to him periodically. [00:04:20] How is he doing? I would say despite the incredible shock and trauma of this sort of evening abduction and, and spiriting away\u20141500 miles away\u2014in the dark of night.\r\n\r\n[00:04:39] Baher:<\/b> Despite the intense fear and anxiety the family has with Noor, his wife is eight months pregnant and the kind of existential terror about possibly being incarcerated when their first child is born. And aside from the political weight. He has been [00:05:00] carrying and that's been forced upon him, including by, you know, the entire apparatus of the United States government.\r\n\r\n[00:05:05] Baher:<\/b> In spite of all of that, I think he is resilient and strong, managing staying positive, which is\u2014I didn't know him before, but which is consistent with everything that we've [00:05:20] heard about Mahmoud in general, and his sort of empathic, thoughtful leadership role on the Columbia campus. So all things considered he's doing okay, and is focused and strong.\r\n\r\n[00:05:36] Ben:<\/b> I am always blown away by the resilience of our clients. [00:05:40] Baher and I have both represented people who were tortured in CIA black sites, who were locked away in Guantanamo at first without lawyers. And it's just amazing when you talk to these people, how much they focus on making sure that others don't get stuck in the same kind of position, how much they focus on the details of the legal cases that we're [00:06:00] bringing and really wanting to understand how we're trying to use the same system that locked them up to get them out and to get justice for them.\r\n\r\n[00:06:07] Kamau:<\/b> Yeah. And I wanna ask about one more thing, 'cause it's hard to sort of know what is true and what is not true. But I've heard there's been a sense of Mahmoud building community with the people he's incarcerated with. Like, I've heard about commissary and things? Is that, how much of that is that [00:06:20] actually happening or is that true?\r\n\r\n[00:06:21] Baher:<\/b> Yeah, I mean, in the limited contexts, social contexts that are available to someone who's in, you know, private ICE detention facility. He does seem to have a communal life. He, in his public letter, he noted that even though [00:06:40] he's the target of this persecutory action, that there are so many other immigrants there who\u2014in detention\u2014who've been there for, for months, thousands of miles away from family.\r\n\r\n[00:06:52] Baher:<\/b> And he's both sort of recognized the broader systemic horrors of immigration detention, [00:07:00] and I think found strength and solidarity in the, you know, comradery and the fellowship he has with colleagues he's made.\r\n\r\n[00:07:07] Kamau:<\/b> And we can't help but also talk about his wife, Dr. Noor. How is she doing? Eight months pregnant is not a time to not be able to rely on your partner who you've gone through this whole thing with.\r\n\r\n[00:07:18] Kamau:<\/b> How is Dr. Noor doing? \r\n\r\n[00:07:19] Baher:<\/b> [00:07:20] I think similarly shocked and, and traumatized. Maybe some of you all have seen the really heart wrenching video of\u2014that she took watching, you know, armed federal agents barge into their apartment [00:07:40] building. And, you know, physically kidnap, that's the word she uses as, and, and if you see the video that looks like an accurate description, kidnap her husband not knowing where he would be sent or if she would see him again.\r\n\r\n[00:07:57] Baher:<\/b> So I think we [00:08:00] can't underestimate the, the trauma that that will leave with her, particularly in this moment of vulnerability. And she's able to communicate with Mahmoud, which is a huge relief. She has a beautiful support community, the university. You know, we saw her on Friday. She's naturally scared and anxious, but also [00:08:20] remarkably resilient and courageous and finding meaning and peace wherever she can in this experience.\r\n\r\n[00:08:29] Kamau:<\/b> I think\u2014I have seen the video, which I think it does put it in stark relief exactly how this, how awful this had to be. And if I'm understanding, the people who kidnapped him didn't identify who they were with or who they were [00:08:40] representing. Is that true?\r\n\r\n[00:08:41] Baher:<\/b> They didn't give their, their names and they didn't show a warrant, but I think it was clear that they were with ICE.\r\n\r\n[00:08:46] Ben:<\/b> I think it was also clear, and I've heard this informally from people in government that they didn't know when they showed up at their apartment that he had a green card, they thought that he was there on a student visa. But as with [00:09:00] everything else, this administration did and does, instead of backing down, they doubled down.\r\n\r\n[00:09:06] Kamau: <\/b>Mmm.\r\n\r\n[00:09:06] Ben:<\/b> And they took a case that was a major affront to civil liberties and made it potentially a catastrophe for civil liberties because they've now invoked an argument that I would, again, not expect to see in this country, [00:09:20] that the Secretary of State. Can single out any one of the 12 million lawful permanent residents of this country, people with strong ties to this country and say, \u201cThat's it.\u201d\r\n\r\n[00:09:30] Ben:<\/b> \u201cYou\u2019re out of here. You have to leave your family, your job, your community, because I have determined that your presence here interferes with the president's foreign policy.\u201d [00:09:40] So, you know, that error made a very important case, one of the more vital cases that I've ever been involved in.\r\n\r\n[00:09:49] Baher:<\/b> That's right. You sort of map the incompetence with venality and we get this toxic brew, because they did show up and announce that his visa's being revoked [00:10:00] and his wife calmly went to the apartment and showed them a green card. And they sort of fumbled and stumbled and said, \u201cWell, that's being revoked, too.\u201d\r\n\r\n[00:10:10] Baher:<\/b> And that was it. And it's, yeah, and as Ben said, that made a minor catastrophe into a major legal catastrophe.\r\n\r\n[00:10:18] Kamau:<\/b> Yeah. I don't think that's, you know, I\u2014[00:10:20] that was something that I was not aware of. And again, I think even those of us who, I feel like I'm following the case fairly closely, but even those who are following it, it is so twisty and turning and complicated and also so head scratching-ly hypocritical in so many ways that you, that at that moment those law enforcement officers could have been, like, \u201cOh, hold on a second. Let's go back and check this.\u201d [00:10:40] And then we're talking about a different thing. We're not talking about this. So that, and, and we always have this sort of like, \u201cgood apple, bad apple.\u201d\r\n\r\n[00:10:46] Kamau:<\/b> The good apples have to stand up to the bad apples thing in law enforcement. And so many times you feel like it is the banality of people in those positions that that sort of allows injustice to prosper.\r\n\r\n[00:10:57] Baher:<\/b> Yeah. One other, one other [00:11:00] relevant fact to this sort of how far up this goes and how political this is as Mahmoud heard the ICE agents taking calls from the White House. You know, unspecified but this was all happening in, in real time. The sort of improvised, like, [00:11:20] authoritarianism on the fly.\r\n\r\n[00:11:21] Kamau: <\/b>\u201cImprovised authoritarianism on the fly.\u201d That's where we're at. Wow. Mm-hmm. So for people who've only seen Mahmoud, Khalil's name passing in headlines, 'cause there's so much news going on right now, can we get, what are the basics of the case and how he ended up sort of under the eye, watchful eye of the Trump administration in the first place?\r\n\r\n[00:11:39] Ben:<\/b> Well, sure. Maybe I'll give [00:11:40] some of the background, Baher. You can give some of the details of the legal proceedings. But I think the whole world has seen that Columbia University has been a locus of very intense protests since October 7th. And Mahmoud Khalil is a Palestinian human rights activist who was very, very [00:12:00] involved in those protests, in fact, became a student leader of those protests\u2014by many accounts, a mediator of those protests, someone who helped negotiate between the student activists and the university during a very, very fraught time.\r\n\r\n[00:12:13] Ben:<\/b> But also certainly involved in protests that were quite controversial to many in the Columbia community and outside the [00:12:20] community. And the Trump administration made very clear when it came into office, with a series of executive orders, that it was going to target supporters of what it considered to be pro-Hamas, anti-Semitic speech, with, with a great, great deal of scrutiny.\r\n\r\n[00:12:38] Ben:<\/b> And at that point, [00:12:40] you started to see some outside groups highlight specific members of the community and suggest to the Trump administration that these were the leaders of the protest movement and these were the people that the Trump administration should target. So, it was certainly the case.\r\n\r\n[00:12:53] Ben:<\/b> Now, one other feature of Mahmoud Khalil is that while many protesters on that campus wore masks precisely so they couldn't [00:13:00] be identified, he always made a point of not wearing a mask, and being outspoken and open about his role in advocating against the war and for human rights.\r\n\r\n[00:13:12] Ben:<\/b> And, and that's another reason why, I think, he was early on identified as a target here.\r\n\r\n[00:13:17] Baher:<\/b> Yeah. And, and [00:13:20] he is the number one target for what the Trump administration has said will be many more of these kinds of cases to come, which have in fact happened with other Palestinian-aligned students at Georgetown and Columbia and other universities.\r\n\r\n[00:13:35] Baher:<\/b> And so after his arrest, his immigration [00:13:40] attorneys filed emergency papers with the federal court in New York for a petition for habeas corpus saying his detention was unlawful. At that time though, the ICE officials were moving him around various jurisdictions and, you know, I, I think some manipulation of the [00:14:00] court system.\r\n\r\n[00:14:01] Baher:<\/b> So, you know, by the time Sunday came, he was arrested Saturday, he was already flown to Louisiana and the government has argued, has continued to argue that the courts in New York or New Jersey cannot hear his case. The case must stay in [00:14:20] Louisiana, which the government uses for a number of reasons, not least, the law in that judicial district is highly, highly conservative and deferential to the executive branch, particularly on immigration matters.\r\n\r\n[00:14:33] Baher:<\/b> So they want to keep him out of the New York and New Jersey courts, and the legal case has been moving very [00:14:40] quickly. And there are sort of a number of questions, at issue, one demanding that he in fact, be physically returned to the New York, New Jersey area. Two, that he be granted bail or bond because he has no flight risk whatsoever. \r\n\r\n[00:15:00] Baher:<\/b> And then three, ultimately, that his detention would violate the Constitution. It would violate First Amendment protections against governmental retaliation for particular viewpoint and would violate due process protections that guarantee one isn't punished or [00:15:20] incarcerated by virtue of guilt by association.\r\n\r\n[00:15:22] Baher:<\/b> Or under as, as Ben can talk about this incredibly broad foreign policy invocation of executive immigration power.\r\n\r\n[00:15:31] Ben:<\/b> One irony, Kamau, is\u2014I mean, Inauguration Day already seems like three lifetimes ago. \r\n\r\n[00:15:30] Kamau: <\/b>Yes. \r\n\r\n[00:15:39] Ben:<\/b> But on his first day in office, one of the executive orders that Trump signed, supposedly promoted freedom of speech and said that we are against censorship, that every member of this administration will promote and defend the First Amendment.\r\n\r\n[00:15:55] Ben:<\/b> And we have not seen in my lifetime an [00:16:00] administration or a president with such consistent pervasive hostility towards the First Amendment, who has at every turn tried to shut down any power center in society that might hold him in check. And, and, you know, this case is really squarely in the middle of this.\r\n\r\n[00:16:18] Ben:<\/b> The message here [00:16:20] is, \u201cIf you're in this country. Even if you're here lawfully, even if we've done a background check, even if we decided that you get to live here permanently, unless you tow the line, unless you are willing to kiss the ring, unless you're willing to silence yourself, your status here is in jeopardy.\u201d\r\n\r\n[00:16:38] Ben:<\/b> And remember, that's [00:16:40] not just tragic for people like Mahmoud who get swept up into this system. That is actually depriving everybody in this country of the right to hear speech that might dissent from the party line. If everyone is living under this kind of chill, everyone who's visiting us\u2014\r\n\r\n[00:16:56] Ben:<\/b> And that includes not just students, but scholars, doctors, [00:17:00] lawyers, professionals, if they all feel that unless they wear their MAGA hats, they're gonna be deported. It's going to completely impoverish the environment for all of the rest of us as well. And that's why these cases are so, so important.\r\n\r\n[00:17:14] Baher:<\/b> Yeah. And in addition to the sort of false flag of [00:17:20] free speech that this administration is indulging or attempting to indulgence with the utmost hypocrisy. There's the other false flag of trying to prevent or protect against antisemitism coming from an administration that\u2014and a president who aided and abetted neo-Nazis storming the capitol to [00:17:40] overturn the election in the name of white supremacy and who call called avowed white supremacist and neo-Nazis marching in Charlottesville \u201cvery fine people.\u201d\r\n\r\n[00:17:49] Baher:<\/b> So one has to wonder why Mahmoud's alleged antisemitism, which is\u2014we can talk about this\u2014absolutely preposterous, [00:18:00] in the extreme, based on, you know, everyone who knows him. But in any event, that antisemitism from a Palestinian human rights activists, alleged antisemitism is a threat to the foreign policy of the United States, but not having a lot of neo-Nazis in your cabinet.\r\n\r\n[00:18:18] Baher:<\/b> That's all fine.\r\n\r\n[00:18:19] Kamau:<\/b> Yeah. [00:18:20] That, I mean, I think, you know, I'm old enough to remember when, when they were mad that college campuses weren't allowing\u2014and \u201callowing,\u201d and I can put air quotes\u2014conservatives to have free speech on college campuses, and that was the whole thing is about, \u201cWe need more free speech on college campuses.\u201d And now to see it be so blatantly about, \u201cOh no, you just wanted to protect that<\/i> specific type of speech.\u201d\r\n\r\n[00:18:38] Kamau:<\/b> Not free speech generally.\r\n\r\n[00:18:40] Ben:<\/b> And this is of a piece with the assault on the universities themselves. \r\n\r\n[00:18:44] Baher:<\/b> Mm-hmm. \r\n\r\n[00:18:39] Ben:<\/b> The Trump administration said to Columbia, \u201cWe're gonna take away $400 million and we won't even talk to you. We won't even negotiate with you about how you might get it back unless you agree to put an academic department under receivership and change the course offerings, [00:19:00] change your admissions process, change your discipline process, ban the wearing of masks on campus.\u201d\r\n\r\n[00:19:04] Ben:<\/b> All of these things aimed right at the free speech rights of that community, aimed at Columbia's first amendment right to decide what kind of academic community it wants to be. Again, under a banner of free speech. I mean, [00:19:20] it's beyond ironic. And I think it needs to be said here that Columbia's response to this, which was apology and capitulation rather than fighting back, even though those orders were completely illegal and, and I think courts would've blocked them, only emboldened the administration to keep up these kinds of attacks.\r\n\r\n[00:19:38] Ben:<\/b> If the privileged, [00:19:40] powerful institutions in our society are unwilling to stand up for free speech, how should we expect others? Why are we placing this burden on a non-citizen, who is here on a green card, who now has to carry on this fight that Columbia itself won't even take on.\r\n\r\n[00:19:55] Baher:<\/b> Yeah. This idea that the, you know, conservatives were appalled that, [00:20:00] you know, there was an absence of free speech on campus.\r\n\r\n[00:20:03] Baher:<\/b> We just sort of can't underestimate the powers of projection. I mean, who are the real snowflakes here? And when, when, so it's\u2014it was never really about free speech. It was as always from their sort of authoritarian instincts to [00:20:20] have things said that they agree with, and now that they're in power to use the full force of the United States government to enforce that ideological viewpoint.\r\n\r\n[00:20:29] Kamau:<\/b> Yeah, I think you, you both have done a great job of, like, you know, the question is like, \u201cWell, if I'm not\u2014if I'm not a Palestinian activist, why should I care about this case?\u201d But you've made it clear that like this is not just [00:20:40] about. Because if they're, they're just targeting speech they don't like, and in this case it's a speech of a Palestinian activist, but it, it could be somebody who's talking about reparations or somebody who's talking about LGBTQ+ rights or somebody who's talking about, you know, any number of things that they don't like.\r\n\r\n[00:20:56] Ben:<\/b> And Kamau, let\u2019s not talk about what it could be. I mean, let's talk about what it already is. \r\n\r\n[00:20:59] Kamau:<\/b>Sure.\r\n\r\n[00:20:59] Ben:<\/b> I mean, in the same month that we're working on this Khalil case, we're seeing executive orders targeting specific law firms because they represented the president's political opponents, or because they did voting rights litigation that the administration didn't like.\r\n\r\n[00:21:16] Ben:<\/b> We saw an executive order recently that attacked the [00:21:20] entire legal profession, for taking on important cases on immigrants rights and other issues. We are litigating against the National Endowment for the Arts, which said if you wanna apply for an arts grant, you need to, uh, certify that you will not promote \u201cgender ideology,\u201d whatever that means.\r\n\r\n[00:21:38] Ben:<\/b> We're representing research scientists whose important medical research was scrubbed from government run websites because it had \u201cnaughty\u201d words like LGBT in it. So I, you cannot look at this case in isolation and you don't need to engage in hypotheticals because we have already seen a really, really ferocious attempt to stifle disfavored ideology [00:22:00] across our entire society already in just a few short months.\r\n\r\n[00:22:03] Baher:<\/b> Yeah, I quite agree. It's like an ideological neutron bomb they've dropped in government. This sort of, like, leaving the physical structures in place but peeling out any kind of messaging, not even necessarily advocacy, just sort of words or [00:22:20] ideas that the administration finds unacceptable to be a part of civil discourse, which is pretty terrifying.\r\n\r\n[00:22:27] Baher:<\/b> And then, you know, following the models of Orban and Modi, I think, you know, as Ben is suggesting, civil society is absolutely next. Legal organizations, grassroots [00:22:40] advocacy organizations operating in every area you, you mentioned, Kamau. You know, it's not clear how they would wanna use the leverage of the United States government to go after civil society, but I think it's not surprising they started with big law because if you can convince major institutions, as Ben was saying, like Columbia or some [00:23:00] of the biggest law firms in the country to bend the knee, then who next would dare stand up?\r\n\r\n[00:23:05] Baher:<\/b> And really, if big law is gone, who's gonna help support the ACLU and CCR when they come after us.\r\n\r\n[00:23:11] Kamau:<\/b> So you, you both bring up an interesting point. You know, anybody who's associated with Mahmoud Khalil's case is basically putting themselves in the target of the government too. [00:23:20] So. You could have had the choice to run from this case screaming, like, \u201cNo, no, no, no, no.\u201d\r\n\r\n[00:23:26] Kamau:<\/b> How did you two both get connected to this case? And who else is on his\u2014on Khalil\u2019s team?\r\n\r\n[00:23:31] Ben:<\/b> I wanna just say before we get into that, I think, you know, Baher and I both know human rights lawyers in other countries, human rights [00:23:40] lawyers who, when they get into an elevator, have to worry about who the next person is, who's gonna get into the elevator, because their lives are in danger.\r\n\r\n[00:23:45] Ben:<\/b> Mm-hmm. And it has never been like that to practice human rights law in the United States, and it still isn't. And the kinds of risks that we're talking about are, for the most part, I think, not risks to our lives and safety. And I want to contextualize that we still are [00:24:00] members of a powerful profession, and we've worked for powerful institutions, and we came into this profession because we wanted to defend the rights of others, and we'll do that. \r\n\r\n[00:24:10] Ben:<\/b> And, and really I hope if other lawyers are listening to this, they understand, you know, these<\/i> are the times for which they're going to be judged. These are the actions [00:24:20] for which they're going to be judged. And the lawyers who are bending the knee and who are capitulating are writing the first paragraphs of their own obituaries.\r\n\r\n[00:24:28] Ben:<\/b> And I wanna say that in very, very strong terms, right? We have a privilege and we have a responsibility. Right now, our court system is still functioning. And we've seen federal courts in case [00:24:40] after case stand up against some of the worst legal violations that we've seen. Maybe that won't continue to hold?\r\n\r\n[00:24:46] Ben:<\/b> I think it will. And we have to keep bringing those cases to the courts. But I don't wanna make us the center of the story here. I, I don't feel, you know, personally targeted, threatened in the way that Mahmoud Khalil was, [00:25:00] or in the way that some of my colleagues in other countries and other societies have been.\r\n\r\n[00:25:05] Ben:<\/b> And I don't wanna give any lawyer in our society, particularly a big law lawyer, you know, such an easy way out of doing what is really required of them at this moment.\r\n\r\n[00:25:15] Baher:<\/b> Yeah. We've\u2014I think recognizing the significance of [00:25:20] this case\u2014we've had sort of an amazing collaboration between his immigration lawyer and actually a lawyer for Mahmoud in his disciplinary case against Columbia named Amy Greer, the Center for Constitutional Rights and the CLEAR Project at CUNY.\r\n\r\n[00:25:41] Baher: <\/b>The National ACLU, who's expert on First Amendment and due process issues, and the New York Civil Liberties Union, who shares that expertise. And a professor at NYU, Alina Doss, who's an immigration expert and actually won\u2014litigated and won\u2014a similar case on behalf of an activist Ravi Ragbir, who\u2014\r\n\r\n[00:26:05] Baher:<\/b> She won a case challenging his removal as retaliation for his activism. And now the case is in New Jersey, the ACLU from New Jersey has, has joined in as well. So it's a, it's a very big and, and [00:26:20] powerful team, thankfully. And he also has immigration lawyers who have experience in the intersection of immigration and national security.\r\n\r\n[00:26:28] Kamau:<\/b> And how did you two get connected with the case?\r\n\r\n[00:26:30] Baher:<\/b> For me? One of my colleagues was in touch with a classmate, Kyle, who was Mahmoud's original [00:26:40] immigration attorney. So, got on a couple of calls on Sunday, understood the stakes, and immediately decided to jump in on the very first emergency petition we filed with the federal court on Monday morning.\r\n\r\n[00:26:55] Baher:<\/b> That led to a big press conference and an amazing rally of what seemed [00:27:00] like 800 or a thousand supporters outside the courtroom. And then, yeah, of course the, this is right up the ACLU'S alley, so they were gonna be natural partners as well as CUNY CLEAR who, you know, works on FBI- and ICE-related suppression, particularly of Arabs and Muslims in the post 9\/11 era.\r\n\r\n[00:27:19] Ben:<\/b> [00:27:20] We are a very connected public interest legal community. Many of the lawyers working on this case have worked together on many cases under this president and other presidents in the past. And, and that allowed this team to get up to speed very quickly.\r\n\r\n[00:27:37] Kamau:<\/b> I, you know, you've mentioned this earlier, Baher, about the [00:27:40] idea of like, this is not, you know\u2014that he's been accused of, that Mahmoud has been accused of antisemitism.\r\n\r\n[00:27:45] Kamau:<\/b> And you say it's not the case. And so please feel free to talk more about that, and also [you] can talk generally about how this is just a clear violation of First Amendment rights.\r\n\r\n[00:27:56] Baher:<\/b> So the antisemitism, it's really [00:28:00] complicated to have to deal with that. 'cause it's just, it's just rolled out as a smear and a trap.\r\n\r\n[00:28:04] Kamau:<\/b> Mm-hmm. \r\n\r\n[00:28:04] Baher:<\/b> And so it's just the farthest thing from his worldview, he believes in the sort of interconnectedness and freedom of Jews and Palestinians. He [00:28:20] is committed to Palestinian human rights, which is falsely and smear-ly associated with a derogatory view of Jews, of antisemitism, which is a really dangerous conflation.\r\n\r\n[00:28:35] Baher:<\/b> But sort of more to the point, I think as a, a number of [00:28:40] letters from Jewish teachers and fellow Jewish students that were submitted as part of his bail application showed, he is a loving, humane, caring person. And I think in the words of one letter that was particularly resonant from a Jewish student, she wrote, \u201cMahmoud Khalil did more to protect me as a Jewish student than [00:29:00] Columbia University ever did.\u201d\r\n\r\n[00:29:03] Kamau:<\/b> Mm-hmm. \r\n\r\n[00:29:03] Ben:<\/b> You know, I wanna also be careful here because I do think we need to distinguish what's going on in the court of public opinion from what needs to go on in the court. Now, in the court of public opinion, he's been branded a Hamas supporter. Now, you can be sure, [00:29:20] that not just the government but many other people in society who are motivated to put that narrative forward, have combed through every single public word that he's ever spoken.\r\n\r\n[00:29:33] Ben:<\/b> And I have yet to see a single shred of evidence linking him to antisemitism or support for [00:29:40] Hamas, the terrorist organization. The reason why I say I wanna be careful here is that even if he did speak at a rally supporting Hamas' violent acts against Israel, he would still<\/i> be protected by the First Amendment.\r\n\r\n[00:29:55] Ben:<\/b> What the government is able to prescribe is [00:30:00] material support for a designated terrorist organization. He's not allowed to do a fundraiser for Hamas, but certainly the First Amendment allows any of us to advocate for very, very controversial causes. And so I don't want to end up in a public discussion that, you know, sort of says that the legitimacy of his [00:30:20] case, the danger of the government's position, turns on whether he ever said something offensive or not.\r\n\r\n[00:30:25] Kamau:<\/b> Mm-hmm. \r\n\r\n[00:30:25] Ben:<\/b> Because again, as a First Amendment advocate, I routinely represent people whose views I find offensive. In fact, you\u2019re only<\/i> a First Amendment advocate if you're willing to do that. Everyone thinks that [00:30:40] they know what free speech is and they support it. Most people are wrong about both. \r\n\r\n[00:30:45] Ben:<\/b> They don't know what it is. They think that it applies to their tweet being taken down by a private company.\r\n\r\n[00:30:53] Kamau:<\/b> Yes. \r\n\r\n[00:30:54] Ben:<\/b> And they don't support it, because as soon as speech intrudes onto the things that are most precious to them, they say, \u201cWell, no, no, [00:31:00] that's not free speech. That's hate speech. Oh, no, no, no.\u201d\r\n\r\n[00:31:02] Ben:<\/b> \u201cThat's not free speech. That's misinformation. Oh, no, no, no. That's not free speech. That's antisemitism.\u201d All of those things are free speech. And until the day when you stand up to defend the speech rights of someone who deeply offends you, you have never actually supported [00:31:20] free speech.\r\n\r\n[00:31:20] Kamau:<\/b> Well, and it's\u2014well, when you say all that stuff, I would go as, as someone who's made a living throughout my career as a standup comedian.\r\n\r\n[00:31:26] Kamau:<\/b> Like, I know a lot of people say offensive things and get paid for those things and would not be able to get paid if they didn't say offensive things. So\u2014\r\n\r\n[00:31:34] Ben:<\/b> No, and I'm sure you get a lot of emails afterwards saying, \u201cI liked everything that you did except for that [00:31:40] one joke.\u201d But that's not free speech.\r\n\r\n[00:31:41] Kamau:<\/b> Yeah, right. Take that one joke out and then you're fine. And eventually, if you do, if you take all those one jokes out, you're left on stage with nothing. So, yeah. So I understand the idea that free speech covers all speech, but here's a question that I think also people don't understand\u2014and I don't know the answer, either.\r\n\r\n[00:31:58] Kamau:<\/b> Do you have to be a citizen, [00:32:00] a citizen of the United States of America to be covered by free speech in America?\r\n\r\n[00:32:03] Ben:<\/b> You don\u2019t. Now look, it's obviously\u2014you, the First Amendment doesn't really extend to every person on the planet outside the country. And, and when we have brought cases, you know, for example, when the US has excluded foreign scholars because of their speech. We've represented people [00:32:20] here in the US and said, \u201cIt's actually their right to hear the speech that's being implicated.\u201d \r\n\r\n[00:32:31] Kamau:<\/b> Mm-hmm. \r\n\r\n[00:32:21] Ben:<\/b> But it's pretty clear that once you are here, once you are in the United States, maybe a better way to think about it is the First Amendment is a constraint on government. The First Amendment says to the government, \u201cYou cannot take retaliatory punitive action against [00:32:40] someone who is here on US soil, simply because you disagree with a viewpoint or position that's been advocated. \r\n\r\n[00:32:45] Ben:<\/b> That is certainly true for someone to whom we've extended permanent residence, who we've said, \u201cYou are a permanent member of this community.\u201d I think it's also true for people who are here on student visas and, you know, there's a reason why people come from all over the world to our colleges and universities. \r\n\r\n[00:33:00] Ben:<\/b> It's not only because they are some of the most prestigious in the world and have achieved rightful global prominence. It's because of their commitment to free speech, free debate, tolerance. And what we are doing now is we're essentially setting fire [00:33:20] to, you know, this whole tradition, of our trying to say to the best and the brightest people all around the world, \u201cCome here.\u201d\r\n\r\n[00:33:26] Ben:<\/b> \u201cThis is where you should develop into a future leader of our society or your society. This is where you can be exposed to other ideas, be challenged.\u201d It's the whole identity of a university. And, you know, 12 months from now, if the [00:33:40] courts have not stood up for these fundamental freedoms, universities are gonna be something completely different.\r\n\r\n[00:33:45] Ben:<\/b> We are gonna be shut off from learning so many things about the rest of the world that may offend our tender sensibilities, but are really, really vital for the future leaders of America to hear firsthand.\r\n\r\n[00:33:57] Kamau:<\/b> So is there anything that is not<\/i> covered by free speech? I think [00:34:00] generally you hear people in bars go, \u201cYou can't yell fire in a crowded theater.\u201d That\u2019s a thing that people say.\r\n\r\n[00:34:04] Ben:<\/b> What I mean, by the way, is you can't falsely<\/i> yell fire in a crowded theater. 'Cause I would hope that if there was a fire in a crowded theater, someone would say, \u201cFire.\u201d\r\n\r\n[00:34:12] Kamau:<\/b> [Laughing] I'm afraid! I'm allowed to yell it? I don't wanna be arrested for yelling \u201cfire\u201d in a crowded\u2014\r\n\r\n[00:34:17] Ben:<\/b> Look, yeah, of course there are exceptions, and the [00:34:20] exceptions are narrow and they need to be in our system. The First Amendment doesn't protect you if you incite imminent violence against someone else, if you stand in front of a fired up crowd and say, \u201cGo attack those people, the First Amendment doesn't protect you.\u201d\r\n\r\n[00:34:32] Ben:<\/b> Harassment, which we consider to be conduct more than speech. So even if an offensive message is fine, if it's held up [00:34:40] on a banner, if you put it on a particular student's dorm room door, and target in that way, we might regard that as conduct rather than speech. Defamation is a narrow category of speech in some circumstances.\r\n\r\n[00:34:52] Ben:<\/b> You know, lying about something that someone else did can create reputational harm. But again, these are narrow exceptions. [00:35:00] We have the broadest speech rights of any country on the planet. And it actually has served us fairly well. You know, I also will say here that this is an issue where the courts have not been that partisan.\r\n\r\n[00:35:15] Ben:<\/b> Even a very conservative judiciary has generally been quite protective of speech rights. So I actually have some hope, in all the cases that I've talked about today, that there's a good chance that these courts are gonna get this right. Because the\u2014you know, courts understand that whatever rule they make is gonna be applied by someone other than them.\r\n\r\n[00:35:34] Ben:<\/b> If you let, you know, hateful speech be punished in one [00:35:40] case, it's going to be a sheriff in Alabama applying that rule. And in another case, it's gonna be the San Francisco School Board. And they're gonna have a very different idea of what crosses that line into hate speech. And for that reason, we've had pretty strong bipartisan judicial support for free speech, even as we've always had pretty strong bipartisan hostility towards free speech among the [00:36:00] public.\r\n\r\n[00:36:00] Kamau:<\/b> I laughed, chuckled a little bit, 'cause you said, like, you can't\u2014you can't give a speech and say, \u201cGo attack those people over there.\u201d 'Cause it sounds familiar to me. Something\u2014just, I'll just leave it there. Just, it sounded\u2014\r\n\r\n[00:36:13] Ben:<\/b> I think we can say at a minimum, Trump has come pretty close. Yeah.\r\n\r\n[00:36:16] Kamau:<\/b> Yeah. Okay.\r\n\r\n[00:36:17] Baher:<\/b> There's, there's another norm that I think [00:36:20] is worth introducing here that's kind of adjacent to the First Amendment, which is, you know, the principle that one isn't culpable through guilt by association. This is\u2014in periods of sort of high stress or an asserted existential military [00:36:40] threat, which in this case is entirely made up.\r\n\r\n[00:36:42] Baher:<\/b> Here, Palestinians or, or immigrants, it's very customary for the government that did it in the Red Scare and during McCarthyism to suggest that this existential but unseeable threat is everywhere. And so [00:37:00] anyone might be a part of it and that therefore it's okay in going after the sort of the broader movement to single anyone out who's even remotely connected to the movement. \r\n\r\n[00:37:11] Baher:<\/b> So the principle is there has to be individualized guilt and not just an assumption that because you are near a protest [00:37:20] with people who share the same general goals. That your, your conduct can be criminalized.\r\n\r\n[00:37:27] Kamau:<\/b> So, recently we had an episode about on immigration rights and Maribel Hern\u00e1ndez Rivera and Lee Gelernt explained that many immigrants who think<\/i> their statuses are [00:37:40] secure\u2014or whose statuses are<\/i> secure. Like Mahmoud\u2019s, you would think this says, \u201cI can be here,\u201d are now afraid that their status is not as secure as they, as they believed. And are now, people are obviously, you know, can you sort of talk about the\u2014\r\n\r\n[00:37:54] Ben:<\/b> And that's the point. That's the point. \r\n\r\n[00:37:56] Kamau:<\/b> There we go.\r\n\r\n[00:37:57] Ben:<\/b> That's the point of [00:38:00] McCarthyism was not just to haul one person before a congressional committee and question that person about fake ties to communism. The point was for everyone to imagine being hauled in front of that committee. The point here is not just to isolate Mahmoud Khalil in a jail [00:38:20] in Louisiana.\r\n\r\n[00:38:20] Ben:<\/b> The point is to communicate to the millions and millions of other people who share his status that it would be wise for them to stop talking, that they should not criticize the leader, that they should not advocate for causes that the leader opposes, because it could be them next. That's the unmistakable message.\r\n\r\n[00:38:38] Ben:<\/b> Just as the point of [00:38:40] going after one law firm is not just to annoy a particular lawyer who took on the administration but to tell everyone else in the legal profession, \u201cWe can destroy your business if you take on a case against this administration, and if you bring before the judges evidence of our [00:39:00] illegality or misconduct.\u201d\r\n\r\n[00:39:01] Ben:<\/b> And so that's why, you know, the societal response to this cannot be apology and capitulation. It has to be locking arms, because this stuff doesn't work if everybody joins together to oppose it, and it works very well if people or groups can be singled [00:39:20] out and isolated from the herd.\r\n\r\n[00:39:23] Kamau:<\/b> Well, I appreciate that. And that's the thing about it, that sort of connects\u2014that I sort of initially responded to is like, \u201cIf this, if this is happening to this person under these circumstances, that can eventually come for all of us if we don't look like we fall in line with whatever the party line is.\u201d\r\n\r\n[00:39:37] Kamau:<\/b> And, and part of this is about, like, how<\/i>, and you talked about [00:39:40] this earlier, how Khalil was arrested and detained, like, specifically, like\u2014you know, and his wife going to get his green card. And how is, how has that all played out since then? Like, I would imagine that Dr. Noor is, like, once he's gone is, like, \u201cWhat do I do next?\u201d\r\n\r\n[00:39:53] Kamau:<\/b> You know? You know, call the lawyer, but literally, like, how's his wife's experience been with, like, DHS and ICE and those and, and [00:40:00] those people? \r\n\r\n[00:40:00] Baher:<\/b> Yeah, I mean, just the, the, the whole thing is, you know, has been really quite traumatic in the first few days, especially when there was just massive uncertainty.\r\n\r\n[00:40:10] Baher:<\/b> You know, it's a terrifying experience and, you know, not just for the Khalils. I think what the video captured is an experience that, you know, [00:40:20] thousands of people experience having, you know, armed immigration officials with the power to arrest you and send you 1500 miles from your family is a terrifying scenario.\r\n\r\n[00:40:33] Baher:<\/b> So I, you know, one thing I appreciate about Noor and Mahmoud is their recognition that [00:40:40] even though they're being specifically targeted, they're not alone in suffering. The shock and abuses and uncertainty that the immigration detention system is deliberately designed to create\u2014I mean, this government is opposing his bail application.\r\n\r\n[00:40:55] Baher:<\/b> I mean the\u2014it's just, the United States government [00:41:00] wants to keep him incarcerated for months while his wife gives birth as a firstborn child, when under their own terms, there's no criminal record. He's not remotely a flight risk. Can you even, you know, imagine the venality and the cruelty of that, that kind of a practice [00:41:20] and, and lawyers going into court to demand that he stay in jail rather than be with his family.\r\n\r\n[00:41:26] Ben:<\/b> You know, I wanna say here. Part, part of the goal of this strategy, this shock and awe, this flooding the zone. Friday night executive orders, Saturday night arrests in the middle of the night, [00:41:40] is to keep us on our back heels, to make us feel like we're helpless in the face of this onslaught. And just when we get our footing in response to the latest outrage, they come with another one and then another, and then another.\r\n\r\n[00:41:54] Ben:<\/b> Look, it's partly my job to say this, but I sincerely believe it: we can [00:42:00] resist this. There are still powerful institutions in society\u2014we are one of them\u2014that have been around for a long time, uh, that have been through episodes like this. Maybe not with the same kind of pace, velocity, and cruelty.\r\n\r\n[00:42:15] Ben:<\/b> But, but we have been through really terrible times in our country. And [00:42:20] look, law can't solve these problems. Law isn't a substitute for political resistance and political response. What we can try to do is mitigate the worst cruelties, is to throw some sand into the gears and to give the rest of the society time to get their bearings, catch their breath and respond politically, respond with [00:42:40] elections, respond with other kinds of activism.\r\n\r\n[00:42:42] Ben:<\/b> So, so listen, this is the message: it's pretty dark, it may get darker. But if your response to this is helplessness, you're giving the president more power than he actually has.\r\n\r\n[00:42:54] Baher:<\/b> Oh, I think that's an incredibly important point. And I would add another point of maybe [00:43:00] not optimism but contrast. Because, you know, Ben and I were both involved in the responses to the human rights crisis created by the Bush administration after 9\/11.\r\n\r\n[00:43:11] Baher:<\/b> And there were just a few legal organizations resisting and filing cases when sort of mainstream America really [00:43:20] had a lot of tolerance for some of the repressive practices of the Bush administration. But there was nobody in civil society that was particularly well organized in the early years. You know, Trump talks about registering Muslims; you know who actually registered Muslims?\r\n\r\n[00:43:37] Baher:<\/b> George W. Bush. Thousands of [00:43:40] them. And swept up hundreds of Muslims in, in Brooklyn and Queens and put them in immigration detention and tried to use secret hearings. The point is, at that time, there was really no kind of mass resistance; but in the 10, 15 years since, [00:44:00] grassroots movements have grown in so many of these critical spaces. I mean, it used to be\u2014I was, like, the only Muslim in the room in these cases.\r\n\r\n[00:44:08] Baher:<\/b> Now, there are dozens of Muslim-led civil society organizations, dozens of grassroots immigration rights organizations. You just used to be the ACLU; now, and that [00:44:20] mobilization is, and in support of Palestinian human rights. So between sort of actions in the courts and, and political mobilization of the kind Ben is talking about, I agree.\r\n\r\n[00:44:32] Baher:<\/b> We do have the power to resist.\r\n\r\n[00:44:34] Kamau:<\/b> So this is\u2014we're gonna end this on the lightning round. Couple last questions and we'll [00:44:40] just go back and forth, starting with you, Ben. If listeners remember one thing from this conversation, what should it be?\r\n\r\n[00:44:45] Ben:<\/b> That this case is not just about Mahmoud Khalil, that this case is about the right to dissent, and the right to dissent always involves speech that [00:45:00] is offensive, to political majorities, even. And if you find yourself saying, \u201cI'm a strong free speech supporter, um, but this is a little too far for me.\u201d Think again.\r\n\r\n[00:45:13] Baher:<\/b> Yeah, the one thing that I've seen is the power and possibility of mobilization [00:45:20] around cases like this. And using this as a teaching moment, a moment for resistance and a moment for mobilization around values we all care about.\r\n\r\n[00:45:34] Baher:<\/b> This case is getting a lot of attention because I think many people see as Ben has [00:45:40] just emphasized, it's not just about Mahmoud, it's about all of us. It's about the, you know, basic principles of a constitutional republic.\r\n\r\n[00:45:48] Kamau:<\/b> And if listeners do<\/i> one thing from this conversation to wish, should it be. Ben? If there's one thing a person, listener does.\r\n\r\n[00:45:54] Ben:<\/b> Again, I think supporting civil society organizations like the Center for Constitutional Rights and the ACLU is so important at times like these, because we are the ones who are able to bring these injustices to courts, and courts are still functioning in this country.\r\n\r\n[00:46:07] Ben:<\/b> But beyond that: please don't wait for the law to fix things. I think when Trump was president the first time, people waited for a prosecutor to save us; when he was out of office, they waited for a [00:46:20] different prosecutor to save us. That's not gonna work. The only solution to what we're going through right now is for it to be repudiated by a strong political majority.\r\n\r\n[00:46:29] Ben:<\/b> So be part of that majority.\r\n\r\n[00:46:31] Baher:<\/b> I was just gonna agree with Ben that lawyers play a, like, a, a critical defensive role, but, [00:46:40] really what\u2014all we can be doing is opening up space for people to engage in politics and resistance like in the streets, in local elections, in town halls. People can't be seen to acquiesce to, to this.\r\n\r\n[00:46:59] Baher:<\/b> [00:47:00] And there is mass power in these moments to mobilize people.\r\n\r\n[00:47:05] Kamau:<\/b> So last, and this is a classic ACLU question here. 'Cause right now people are wanting to step out into the, you know, into the arena and advocate for a cause they believe in. They might even want to advocate for Mahmoud Khalil specifically.\r\n\r\n[00:47:18] Kamau:<\/b> What are their rights? [00:47:20] What should they be mindful of if they join a public protest? And what should you do or not do if you're arrested or detained? This seems like it's right down Ben Alley, I\u2019m guessing.\r\n\r\n[00:47:28] Ben:<\/b> Yeah, it is. And you know, I have to say, normally this is a very straightforward question for me.\r\n\r\n[00:47:34] Ben:<\/b> In the context of today\u2019s conversation, it's a very painful question for me. \r\n\r\n[00:47:40] Kamau:<\/b> Yeah. \r\n\r\n[00:47:40] Ben:<\/b> Because if my friend or relative, who does not hold a US passport, came to me and said, \u201cShould I participate in this mass mobilization rally this weekend?\u201d I would unfortunately have to pause before answering before telling that [00:48:00] person to put her own body and status on the line.\r\n\r\n[00:48:03] Ben:<\/b> And, and that is so painful to have to say. So let's first of all start with people who don't have that particular vulnerability: get out there. We have incredible Know Your Rights materials on the ACLU website that you can find, and I have no [00:48:20] reason to think that the courts\u2014again, even in the face of these challenges\u2014will be anything other than fully protective of the right to engage in mass nonviolent protest of policies that we disagree with.\r\n\r\n[00:48:31] Ben:<\/b> If you are a non-citizen, particularly if you're a student here on a visa, and, you know, you decide that there are other ways for you to contribute to this resistance other [00:48:40] than, you know, putting yourself at risk of arrest and removal and being sent out of this country, no one's gonna judge you at a time like this. Just because these are really scary times.\r\n\r\n[00:48:52] Kamau:<\/b> Baher, what's giving you hope right now? \r\n\r\n[00:48:52] Baher:<\/b> What's giving me hope was, I think, coming out of the courtroom in Khalil's case and seeing a [00:49:00] thousand people demanding justice for him, and showing up in, you know, one of the more concentrated ways in the\u2014after the election\u2014we've seen in a long time. And, and knowing that this case can really, hopefully [00:49:20] leverage a conversation about how serious, how dangerous the administration's actions are.\r\n\r\n[00:49:26] Baher:<\/b> But also the possibility that with, you know, collective organizing and smart lawyering, fair and impartial judging, we can win. \r\n\r\n[00:49:40] Kamau:<\/b> Same Ben, what's giving you hope right now?\r\n\r\n[00:49:41] Ben:<\/b> You, you know, it's a privilege to be able to work in a place like this on a, on really hard days. You know, I've been in the ACLU offices twice the day after Trump won an election; where everyone else in my world is shattered and broken and immobilized and [00:50:00] everyone in my office is rolling up their sleeves and saying, \u201cLet's do this.\u201d\r\n\r\n[00:50:03] Ben:<\/b> \u201cLet's get to work. This is what we're here for. This is why we've been around for a hundred years. It's our time.\u201d And so just seeing my colleagues both in this organization and in the public interest, legal community in general just do the work. And when they finish [00:50:20] filing one brief, turning and saying, \u201cWhat's next?\u201d\r\n\r\n[00:50:23] Ben:<\/b> \u201cWhat do we have to do next? What do we have to do next?\u201d Is so unbelievably inspiring, um, that I feel sorry for people who don't get to be surrounded by that on a day-to-day basis.\r\n\r\n[00:50:34] Kamau:<\/b> Nice. Where can listeners keep up with you and your work and how can they show support for Mahmoud Khalil.\r\n\r\n[00:50:38] Ben:<\/b> Well, I think listeners know to [00:50:40] go to aclu.org. If they try to find me on social media, they will find a big blank because I retired from that about six or seven years ago because it was making me dumber, Kamau.\r\n\r\n[00:50:52] Kamau:<\/b> Good job. You, you did the right thing. You did the right thing. I'm not gonna\u2014applause for your mental health concerns.\r\n\r\n[00:50:59] Ben:<\/b> I'm [00:51:00] sorry. It really was. It really was. Yeah. So just, just, just follow follow the ACLU on all of the social media platforms that you think are important in your life, even though they're not.\r\n\r\n[00:51:12] Baher:<\/b> Yeah, same. So you can follow us at ccrjustice.org. And we [00:51:20] publicize events, rallies, actions that people can take. So follow us on social media, even if Ben won't.\r\n\r\n[00:51:27] Kamau:<\/b> Ben refuses to follow you. He'll open up an account just to follow you. \r\n\r\n[00:51:31] Baher:<\/b> Well, he can pick up the phone. It's okay. \r\n\r\n[00:51:34] Kamau:<\/b> Yeah, that's true. And how can we support Mahmoud Khalil?\r\n\r\n[00:51:37] Baher:<\/b> On our respective social media and [00:51:40] organizational sites, there are lots of ways to\u2014you'll see\u2014to show up and support Khalil.\r\n\r\n[00:51:47] Ben:<\/b> Including taking action, signing letters and petitions. Yeah. We've seen millions of signatures gathered by different organizations. And believe me, that stuff does actually matter. It's not enough. [00:52:00] But it's important.\r\n\r\n[00:52:01] Kamau:<\/b> No, but it is good to hear that it matters because I think sometimes you get so many petitions sent your way or, or actions and you go, \u201cDoes this matter?\u201d\r\n\r\n[00:52:07] Kamau:<\/b> Obviously, you, you'd like to think that signing the petition can sort of fix everything, but it is good to know that it matters, even if it doesn't do\u2014even if it isn't as powerful as you would love it to be. But it is good to know it matters.\r\n\r\n[00:52:18] Ben:<\/b> It matters at scale. I [00:52:20] don't want people to think that they can do all their politics from a keyboard, but it does matter at scale.\r\n\r\n[00:52:24] Kamau:<\/b> Well, thank you two. I appreciate your time today. I know you have a lot going on and we really\u2014and I really personally appreciate this, 'cause this is a case that I've been trying to follow very closely.\r\n\r\n[00:52:33] Ben:<\/b> Thanks, Kamau.\r\n\r\n[00:52:34] Kamau:<\/b> Thank you, Kamau. It was a pleasure.\r\n\r\n[00:52:39] Kamau:<\/b> Thanks again to our [00:52:40] guest, Ben and Baher, and thanks to you for listening. And remember friends, friends, help friends stay in the fight. Join us, aclu.org. You didn't need to know that. But I told you, anyway. \r\n\r\nAnd if you enjoyed listening to this episode of At Liberty, please subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and rate and review the show.\r\n\r\n[00:52:57] Kamau:<\/b> It really means a lot to us. Give us five stars. We're doing [00:53:00] the big work here. Until next time, I'm your host, W. Kamau Bell. At Liberty is a production of the ACLU. This episode was executive produced by the ACLU\u2019s Jessica Herman Weiss, and Gwen Schroeder, and from Who Knows Best Productions, me, Kelly Rafferty, PhD, and Melissa Hudson Bell, PhD.\r\n\r\nAnd it was recorded at the great Skyline Studios in Oakland, California. What's up, Brian? This show is edited and produced by Erica Getto and Myrriah Gossett for Good Get.","components":[{"acf_fc_layout":"text","text":{"text":"Mahmoud Khalil is a recent Columbia University graduate, activist, soon-to-be father, and U.S. green card holder. On March 8, he was unlawfully detained because of his speech in defense of Palestinian human rights. On this week\u2019s episode of At Liberty, host W. Kamau Bell is joined by two members of Khalil\u2019s legal team\u2014the ACLU\u2019s Ben Wizner and Baher Azmy from Center for Constitutional Rights\u2014to discuss why his case should raise alarm bells for anyone who cares about free speech."}}],"we_want_to_hear_from_you":"","participants":"","links":{"spotify":"","apple_podcasts":""},"related_news_articles":[202719],"issues":[46479,46641,46529],"related_content_cases":[201302,202612,210000,211000,212501,212991],"related_affiliates":""},"yoast_head":"\nAmerican Civil Liberties Union<\/title>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"en_US\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:title\" content=\"Free Mahmoud Khalil with Ben Wizner and Baher Azmy | American Civil Liberties Union\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:url\" content=\"https:\/\/www.aclu.org\/podcast\/free-mahmoud-khalil-with-ben-wizner-and-baher-azmy\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:site_name\" content=\"American Civil Liberties Union\" \/>\n<meta property=\"article:modified_time\" content=\"2025-03-28T13:24:52+00:00\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:image\" content=\"https:\/\/assets.aclu.org\/live\/uploads\/2025\/03\/600-x-600_alt.jpg\" \/>\n\t<meta property=\"og:image:width\" content=\"600\" \/>\n\t<meta property=\"og:image:height\" content=\"600\" \/>\n\t<meta property=\"og:image:type\" content=\"image\/jpeg\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:card\" content=\"summary_large_image\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:site\" content=\"@aclu\" \/>\n<script type=\"application\/ld+json\" class=\"yoast-schema-graph\">{\"@context\":\"https:\/\/schema.org\",\"@graph\":[{\"@type\":\"WebPage\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.aclu.org\/podcast\/free-mahmoud-khalil-with-ben-wizner-and-baher-azmy\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/www.aclu.org\/podcast\/free-mahmoud-khalil-with-ben-wizner-and-baher-azmy\",\"name\":\"Free Mahmoud Khalil with Ben Wizner and Baher Azmy | American Civil Liberties Union\",\"isPartOf\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.aclu.org\/#website\"},\"primaryImageOfPage\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.aclu.org\/podcast\/free-mahmoud-khalil-with-ben-wizner-and-baher-azmy#primaryimage\"},\"image\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.aclu.org\/podcast\/free-mahmoud-khalil-with-ben-wizner-and-baher-azmy#primaryimage\"},\"thumbnailUrl\":\"https:\/\/assets.aclu.org\/live\/uploads\/2025\/03\/600-x-600_alt.jpg\",\"datePublished\":\"2025-03-28T12:00:47+00:00\",\"dateModified\":\"2025-03-28T13:24:52+00:00\",\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\",\"potentialAction\":[{\"@type\":\"ReadAction\",\"target\":[\"https:\/\/www.aclu.org\/podcast\/free-mahmoud-khalil-with-ben-wizner-and-baher-azmy\"]}]},{\"@type\":\"ImageObject\",\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.aclu.org\/podcast\/free-mahmoud-khalil-with-ben-wizner-and-baher-azmy#primaryimage\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/assets.aclu.org\/live\/uploads\/2025\/03\/600-x-600_alt.jpg\",\"contentUrl\":\"https:\/\/assets.aclu.org\/live\/uploads\/2025\/03\/600-x-600_alt.jpg\",\"width\":600,\"height\":600,\"caption\":\"Free Mahmoud Khalil\"},{\"@type\":\"WebSite\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.aclu.org\/#website\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/www.aclu.org\/\",\"name\":\"American Civil Liberties Union\",\"description\":\"The ACLU dares to create a more perfect union \u2014 beyond one person, party, or side. 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